Generally i’d be in support of ID cards. I’d even like it to go one further and do something similar to what Estonia have done (excluding the recent hacking issues).
I also read this recently:
The digital driving licence seemed quite interesting…
1 Like
I’d be concerned about the impact on minorities, especially with the Met Police’s use of stop and search. It’s all well and good saying ‘well if you haven’t done anything wrong, there’s nothing to worry about’…but if you were being constantly stopped, accused, and asked to show your ID card (with the threat that you’ll be held for no reason other than forgetting it one day), you’d be thinking a lot differently.
Let’s not get into political debate on this, but that’s my opinion.
1 Like
ID cards make sense, and the government should have never listened to the tin-foil hat crowd who argued against it:
- It makes travelling easier
- It makes recording the legitimate status of people easier e.g. windrush scandal would not have happened
- Less ID documents are needed. Role NI, passport and driving license into one document
2 Likes
You can’t use a rare, hypothetical situation to ignore all the positives - if that was true, then practically nothing would be invented as everything can go wrong some of the time e.g. cars crash, the internet can be used for transmitting harmful data. You have to weigh the pros against the cons, not just focus on a niche con.
I think it depends on the situation.
My partner is Afro-Caribbean descent and has been stopped by police countless of times for no reason. Having ID cards, while making it more easy to show your identity, could lead to more stops and searches on minorities as it’s easy to say ‘we’re stopping you to check your identity’ rather than for other reasons.
1 Like
Yeah, ignore the users.
Not really rare and hypothetical when you live in inner London and are a young black male. As a white male I don’t have any first hand experience but my boyfriend has.
2 Likes
It is unplesant to be stopped and searched by police for no reason other than your ethnicity. But just like you have just described, you partner doesn’t have UK ID and yet, he is being stopped. Why carrying ID would result in him being stopped more frequently? Police need to give you reasons for stopping you. “Papers, please” is not enough.
1 Like
And if so, then fine. But in my opinion, in a real situation, that probably would be. I mean, George the Poet got stopped for not having car insurance, but yet he did.
But that’s exactly what many of us believe will happen - step 1 is voluntary ID, step 2 makes it compulsory and step 3 is random stops to check you have it. No thanks.
3 Likes
Stop and search saga of disproportionate targeting of young males from ethnic minority background has nothing to do with the issue of National ID card. It has all to do with institutional racism at the Met and lack of adequate training to help change the way some policemen view people from ethnic minorities.
1 Like
The whole problem with this is that people believe they are _free_without ID cards and their freedom will disappear forever once ID cards are introduced. Just like I pointed before, the British state employs multitude of ways to control all aspects of our lives. Some of this is to protect us but some of it is just because all states are nosy. The scale of their invigilation and techniques used are so great and sophisticated that the issue of ID cards pales in comparison and will not lead to even greater loss of freedom but provide convenience.
I don’t share your opinion, but that’s the beauty of democracy.
1 Like
I agree. As long as the majority has it their way, I am for it. 
Haha we could get into the tyranny of the majority and disappear down the rabbit hole!
Democracy is terrible, it’s just less terrible than the alternatives.
2 Likes
He got stopped for flagging no insurance, so there is the reason. I would not get into the media fury over this, as it was recorded and deemed justified. Nothing to do with his ethnicity.
We cannot search for no reason (with few exceptions such as in a specific zone that has been identified and there are usually slips explaining this and these are also temporary and rarely issued). If you, or your partner, are ever stopped then (generally) you’ll be searched under:
Section 1 of PACE
Section 23 of the Misuse of Drugs Act
If arrested then you’ll be searched again under Section 32 of PACE.
Both situations require the officer to have stated:
- Their grounds for stopping you (it cannot be just “because” - these powers were removed under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act)
- The exact object they are looking for - not just “something”, it needs to be specific and once they find it they must immediately stop the search
- They must tell you who they are and which police station they are attached to
- They must record the search and you are entitled to a copy
- They must tell you which piece of legislation they are stopping you under (remember: only really 2 to remember)
ALL Met police officers have body worn cameras - ensure this is recording (it will flash red if it is) - it’s vital if you want to complain and the officer will have to justify the search to senior officers or the IPCC.
While I do not think that there is no racism within the police (we are simply a sub-section of society after all) - this idea that there is endemic institutionalised racism is simply not true anymore. The Met has some of the best outcomes of a search in the country (where a search leads to finding an item that is illegal) and steps have been taken to aim searches better with success.
If a person is ever searched and feels it is due to their ethnicity believe me this is taken seriously within the force, very seriously and if there is no justified reason for the search I promise you the officer will be investigated.
Also - a very, very, very small number of searches are actually complained about. I don’t have the number to hand, but I did training very recently and the statistic was astronomically tiny in % of searches result in a complaint that gets taken further than an initial complaint (eg. if someone complains at a front desk it is recorded but once they learn that the entire thing was filmed they tend to then walk away and it is not taken further).
Not to get into the ins-and-outs of searches but I can’t just let some popular concepts get in the way of actual facts and statistics on some issues.
Also to note I don’t represent the Met, any other officers or any other force and my experience is as limited as anyone else given we can’t be everywhere and know everything.
6 Likes
Personally I don’t believe they would. If anything it would actually make it easier, since we need to check anyone we stop generally for things like being wanted etc. If we can’t verify who they are then it makes it more difficult. If I have ID it’s a quick check with control and I’ve only had issues on a few occasions.
1 Like
“Not really rare and hypothetical when you live in inner London and are a young black male.”
That makes no sense. Let me explain:
You: we shouldn’t use airplanes because they may crash.
Me: Crashes are rare.
You: Not if you’re a passenger in a crashing plane.
You’re choosing to ignore all the positives that could come with ID cards because of a very small (hypothetical) negative. If we let that sort of fear-based mentality rule, we’d still be living in caves due to the risk of doing anything else, no matter how small that chance of risk was.
1 Like
Are we required to identify ourselves if you stop us? I didn’t think we are unless arrested.
No, if you are stopped you do not need to. If you can do, it just is easier all around. You do not even need to stop unless the officer has justified cause to. Simply not stopping or refusing to identify yourself is not grounds for search or arrest.
Outside of the searching scenario, refusing to give ID might mean you are arrested rather than issued a summons. For example if you are caught stealing a Mars Bar from Tesco, the officer can issue a summons and you won’t be arrested. If you refuse to give details then you will need to be arrested as we can’t issue a summons.
To reiterate that I do not represent any force and that this is my personal advice and nothing more. Please learn your rights as a citizen because they are often much greater than you believe them to be
Not true in my case I am afraid. I’ve been stopped and searched quite a few times without any reason what so ever. Of course police will be able to give whatever reason they like but I have experienced being singled out on road and airports.
Oh did I mention I am a brown male with a Muslim name.
1 Like