Because I understand data and science.
The “arguments against” are mostly complete bollocks.
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But wouldn’t you agree that some of the arguments “for” are as well?
I don’t really want to get into this with you as you’ve proved all you care about over the last 18 months is getting people on busses.
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Along with hospitality, shops, theatres, travel, etc. all not going bust.
Is that such a bad thing?
To what end though?
Where do we draw the line? There will always be a good reason to be found for doing something for the greater good, at any other cost, however bad.
Personally this is a very difficult dilemma for me to think about, because it entwines science with morality and politics with individual values. If this were to be put to a vote a la brexit, I’d likely abstain.
But then I really think about, and I wonder. What if it was a freedom I held dear as a core perceptual belief I’d never want to compromise on. Like privacy. How could I honestly be in favour of such encroachment on the beliefs and freedoms of others if I’m firmly against it when it comes to my own. My concern is the precedent.
If it were only science and data in play here, I think we’d all be in favour. I know the science demands it, and if humanity wasn’t so flawed, it wouldn’t be necessary. I’m also aware of the moral implications of going down such a path, and that causes me worry and anxiety. Very difficult for me to take a stand on this either way, though selfishly, mandated vaccines sound real attractive right now, which is real conflicting for me.
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If more had not been so silly and got the vaccine we could have been much further back to normal without hospitals having issues.
Everyone DOESNT want things to go bust, we ALL want normal, EVERYONE getting the vaccine as soon as possible is the fastest and easiest way to do this and it will hopefully prevent the NHS having major issues when flu truly hits at the same time.
All this arguing and humming and haying over whether to get it causes the delays that doesnt help anyone and aids those businesses going bust.
Facebook/Random internet doctor wanting to get famous saying vaccine bad does not make the vaccine bad.
If all the non vaccinated people went to get the vaccine tomorrow (assuming capacity) it would still be a month before everyone was protected. All the delays and stupid “but I saw this random doc saying look look his stats say it doesnt work/will kill you” cause the issues we have now.
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Not so sure I do in all honesty. I don’t want the old normal back on the other side of this. I’d rather see some positive change and evolution to our way of life as a species on the other side. Some good things have come out of this, and I hope they stick around.
I was meaning more the possibility of safer holidays and work. Working from home should stay for a lot tbh even if its not the full working week.
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Unfortunately, that may not be the case.
Sigh… it doesnt stop you getting it, it does reduce the chance and it does massively reduce your recovery time.
Also like most things there is no word on if that’s foreign (aka Spanish) workers which may not be vaccinated that have been tested when working in Gibraltar and having to isolate in place or the massive tourism base. Hell we dont even know the % that are fully vaccinated in that article, its just an insinuation that the vaccine isnt working.
You will ALWAYS find storys that will try to fit into your narrative when you scour as much as you do.
Screw it, since you dislike vaccines so much lets all not get vaccinated and let the deaths rocket up, that seems to be better for you than everyone getting the jab. Hell even if they dont die they could get long covid and be unable to work.
Or wait would that be stupid… and end up with the lockdown we had at the start with lots of deaths.
So many anti vaccine people dont give real alternatives when we actually have something that works…
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I’ve never said I dislike them, just the way propaganda and coercion is being used to promote them.
There is a difference.
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Just to be clear, at no point has @Ivan1954 stated they dislike vaccines. Their position seems quite clear to me in that what they’re against is the state-mandated requirement some countries are enacting, which I think is a pretty fair and reasonable view to have.
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But the annual NHS winter collapse is almost tradition now.
Any issues with the NHS this winter are a side-effect of many years of managed decline of the NHS under both Labour and Tory governments, and closing off the NHS to anything that isn’t Covid for 18 months, resulting in huge backlogs of conditions that are reliably more fatal than Covid (cancers etc)
From the sound of some of the posts on here, I don’t believe that for a second.
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Indeed. It is very possible to be both pro-vaccine and anti-mandates.
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I dislike propaganda and coercion being used to put people off from getting them. Look at the angry protests at vaccine centres and the anger at people being encouraged to get them (aka claims of coercion)
If all that FUD had not been spread by muppets the vaccine rate would be far better.
Hell the uk gov couldnt even get everyone to wear masks, a trivial request which prevented spread because of the propaganda about how it was control and taking away peoples freedom.
There is so much BS about the negatives of the vaccines that I am not sure what can be done now.
No one has a solution, people who are anti vax wont wear masks often, they wont get the jab, they hate on people who do either and they walk about happy to spread it. Let them rip I guess is the only way forward (jk) but what can be done… if the gov does anything its nazi like always…
When you get abuse for wearing a mask by facebook warriors its hard to see how there wont be more problems. Wait until the next virus comes along…
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I specifically said I wasn’t talking about the uk - the conversation was sparked by Austria.
If you are comfortable with Government imposed restrictions, then that is your choice and whether I agree or not it is also your right.
But surely those who disagree have the same choice and right.
And that is something I do not agree with.
As I am trying to say we all have a choice and we should all respect each others choice.
Like seatbelts and speed limits? 
they are government imposed restrictions.
See what I did there? Used something to push my agenda. If people stopped doing that and just followed science instead…
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I think we can all agree that propaganda and coercion, whichever side you’re on, is a bad thing.
Our vaccine rate in the UK is actually pretty good, and arguably one of the reasons we are doing well relative to the continent at present is the fact that our politicians didn’t spread anti-AZ propoganda. Our most at-risk population members have therefore had the optimal vaccine for them.
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Why would anyone be comfortable with restrictions… they are a means to an end. The problem is without everyone following them the end sails further and futher into the sunset.
I dont like restrictions but I understand why they are needed and see many of them as sensible (not all, there are quite a few stupid ones)
Its not a one or the other, you can dislike them but agree they are needed.
I respect everyone’s right to choose (to a point) but I dont have to respect their choice. Everyone has the freedom to drink and drive even though its mandated/law you cant but I dont have to respect them for making the choice nor do I have to like it and I will be quite happy to point it out (as will the police)
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