It is the EU system that is undemocratic. Our only role is to elect MEPs that don’t even make the bulk of law that derives from the EU. This was my main reason for voting leave.
Another vote isn’t undemocratic. Not implementing the first vote is. So lets leave then if people want a say to join again Im all for that.
@anon11940565 how refreshing it is to discuss politics without anyone hurling insults!
Would you agree that getting a vote on false information is undemocratic too?
Yes. 
I suppose it depends on what you class as false information. Every election is full of misinformation. I think there is a bit of a naive view that people voted brexit because of a number on a bus. They didn’t.
I’m the first to admit the bus figure was wrong though. It wasn’t £350m it was actually £363m. However if I was leading that campaign I’d have used the net figure of £269m which I think is a substantial amount.
The idea that poor people or those in bad situations are not hard workers is simply not true. The circumstances they are in can and do work against them.
They’re in a crappy job because the alternative is being sanctioned. The job is miles away from where they live, but they don’t have a car. Public transport links are poor so what cold be a ten minute drive is now an hour or more to travel each way.
After work, and after the chunk eaten out of their time by travel, they’re exhausted. But they still have to buy food and cook it. More time gone. If they have kids that’s even more time gone looking after the kids. They might get five hours sleep a night, and then the whole cycle begins again.
They’re working hard at their job - but they can’t improve their situation. It’s a shitty job with no room for advancement. But where’s there time to educate themselves, or search for another job? Even if they have the time to scour job ads and fill applications, that they’re tried out while doing to could work against them, as they fluff things due to tiredness. Or they get an interview but can’t get time off work. Or they get an interview but it goes badly because they don’t have a smart suit. They can’t quit their job to make more time because they need the money. But because they’re working so hard at their job they can’t advance their situation.
To be clear, I’m not trying to say this is the case for absolutely everyone. Just that there are enough people out there in situations like that that it’s wrong to say that all they need to do to improve their situation is to “work hard”.
You find jobs that suit your circumstances that’s what everyone does when choosing a career.
As for this going bankrupt that is usually bad business management. It would be naive of anyone to think that after completing a 2 year apprenticeship that they where ready to start a business of your own, most apprentiships will come with a secure job offer after the end of it so should be no need to go and set up a business with a poor client base Until you have gained plenty of experience and learnt how the particular trade works.
We are a country that has some of the biggest and best industry in the world from computing to farming to car manufacture to medical and chemical advancement and everything inbetween, there is something out there for everyone.
A criminal record shouldn’t stop anything ever mine was as a teenagers I was stupid and got caught I’m no longer that person and now have one of the highest security clearances this country offers.
I don’t like Boris, by any means, but to focus on water canons and smaller issues for a city like London seems like nitpicking. What about knife crime, building affordable houses, reducing poverty and other social issues?
People like to assume he’s out to fill his own pockets, but he promised to freeze his own mayoral share of council tax, during the years of fiscal stringency, and instead actually cut it.
I don’t like him, and I don’t really like the Tories at present, but it feels like some people are looking for a stick to beat him with. People buy into the act of him as some bumbling fool, rather than an Oxford educated intellectual who speaks 6 languages fluently (7 if you include Latin). That doesn’t make him any less wrong on things like Brexit, but it’s not as simple or straightforward as he’s just a moron.
Pocket change but still could have used them towards helping the homeless, increase the security of the capital or the housing problem.
I would be interested in understanding what you consider bat s**t crazy from the Greens manifesto. I didn’t vote them but I find their manifesto pretty fair?
The problem of our government is that the Tory completely messed it up with Cameron and Labour are too weak/borderline irrelevant to take over. The biggest weakness of Labour is Jeremy Corbyn, unfortunately is too naive to understand that.
Ah but that isn’t what you were advocating - is it you can do anything you want with hard work or you have to understand your circumstances? If it is the latter than your circumstances as someone with less means you can’t do anything you want?
Again, if it is only down to hard work - that shouldn’t matter, it should be by virtue of your hardwork.
If I had a criminal record it is almost a certainty I would fail in my application on honesty, character and suitability grounds and therefore would not be able to become a lawyer.
I don’t agree with the people not having a vote on the next PM at all. A general election is needed but it doesn’t work like that unfortunately.
But YES to Boris. He is the only one who speaks his mind and honestly is the least pathetic of all of the candidates. He has half a set of balls and hopefully will get things done this time.
Not a chance with Hunt or Gove. They are male versions of May. They will not have the negotiating skills to handle other world leaders in the slightest let alone finish the work with the leaders of the EU states.
Hard work is why rich people are rich for the most part.
Those in higher paid employment can always better themselves if you aren’t happy then look elsewhere. I haven’t lived in my home town for 17 years and I probably wouldn’t go back as I be live you move to the money not the other way round.
I do agree that travel news to be better accessible to people but there are options to travel to work that is elsewhere. My wife has to follow me round with work but she always hrs a job where ever we end up it’s not hard to find work.
I know 2 lawers who have had criminal records and they do pretty well. And if a criminal record makes you untrustworthy because you made a mistake as a kid then why do I get trusted with the security clearances that I have, oh yeah it because I’m honest about the mistake I made I paid my dues for it and learnt from it and moved on.
I’m sure you had to work hard to get where you are in your working life and sure you struggled at times and overcame them struggles. And as a lawyer you look at background a lot I’m sure and know that we start as products of our background and up bringing etc but we can change that and we can always be better than where we started. If we strive to be the best we can be, but we have to work for it.
You’ll find that most applications to the SRA (as a trainee) are rejected if you have a current unspent criminal record. Like everything there are exceptions.
But again, that is great for you, you were able to get past it (depending on how old you were that is likely the answer) as your conviction would be spent. I don’t want to get bogged down in the criminal conviction/ record part as it wasn’t the main point of my argument.
That just doesn’t equate though, sometimes your circumstances bear down so hard that no matter how hard you want something or how hard you believe it, the chances of getting out are just too low. For the most part hard work pays off of course it does - but it doesn’t mean that you get what you want because you work hard.
I think it is a fair assumption to say that if you get two people (say twins) take one to a largely poorer family and one to a rich family - the chances are the twin with the rich family will do better and earn more no matter how hard that twin from the poorer family works.
But back to the point I don’t think Boris will be too bad he has a lot to do but actually as the next conservative leader I don’t think he’s too bad. I honestly think he’s the best choice on the table at the moment in my eyes. And if he’s not at least he will be a laugh while the country sinks.
Anyone but Corbyn
Just not true at all you can always over come things with hard work and a good mindset I’m a big believer that nothing is unachievable for anyone. I know a guy who is a triple amputee who has just become a padi rescue diver he’s the first ever to do it but proves that no mate how hard things are you can do it. I’m sure Steven hawking often though he couldn’t do it but he got there and became one of the greatest minds the world has ever seen. Both are examples of hard work and dedication getting people above and beyond.
Cornyn would be a disaster that’s for sure.
What does that mean though?
I voted remain, but I agree with you that the result needs to be implemented.
But what does Leave mean? No Customs Union? No backstop? No trade deals?
Everything about the referendum, on both sides, was a catastrophe and superb example of politicians bulls******g the public with lies upon lies upon lies to sell their agenda.
Is it safe for us to leave with a No Deal Brexit? Or do we ensure we leave with a deal?
I don’t want to keep going round in circles (and taking thread off-topic) and think we have had a good discussion. You’ve picked two people out of probably millions and millions (if not more) who work bloody hard and just get by or some not even that.
I agree that generally if you work hard you will get what you want- but it doesn’t mean you definitely will.
To be perfectly honest. I’m not even looking that hard. It’s just what he did as mayor. All a matter of record.
The definition of affordable is 80% of average market value. I’m not aware of that many people I know who could afford that as a first time buyer. 