Meat Eaters

UK General Chat
143

I think you’re definitely right that the way fruit/veg is packaged and sold is important. In my personal experience I have found shopping for staple meats much cheaper than if I were to replicate the same-ish meal but with a vegetarian or vegan alternative (things like Quorn etc) the “sides” if you can call them that of fruit and veg is well priced, but the things that are the substitute for the meat, say a plant-based burger - are quite a bit more expensive than a “normal” burger.

I suppose it is down to supply and demand - there is more demand for meat so that drives the price down - whereas plant based alternatives are still vey much a niche.

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145

The body adapting to cope with it’s surroundings is not evolution. Evolution is about the likelihood of certain genes passing on to the next generation. Have you found a study indicating that having shorter thumbs makes you significantly less likely to have children?

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146

I think you may be mistaking criticism of your views/opinions with criticism of you personally. I don’t think any views or opinions should be immune from criticism. There is a difference between respect for a person and critique of their views. If you feel your views should be immune from criticism then I can’t see how any discussion could be productive.

147

A contrasting article from a report commissioned by Sainsburys looking at future food trends:

https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/~/media/Files/S/Sainsburys/pdf-downloads/future-of-food-08.pdf

Here’s an extract:

“As the global trend for meat consumption increases, Britons are changing their diets to eating less meat,” the report says. "Today, flexitarians, who are those actively reducing their meat consumption, make up a fifth of Britons, while vegetarians account for an eighth of the national population.

“Vegans, those who eat no meat, eggs or animal products, are still in the minority at around 600,000 in the UK. However, with the rise of an ecologically aware new generation, driven by health concerns
and environmental determination, vegetarians (including vegans) look set to make up a quarter of British people in 2025, and flexitarians just
under half of all UK consumers.”

25% in 6 years… my suggestion of a majority of people not eating animals within 20 years doesn’t seem quite so remote as even I thought when I wrote it.

148

Of course one of the reasons that meat is often very cheap is subsidies. That and the both dreadfully cruel and environmentally harming ‘factory farming’ practices that increasing: hundreds of thousands of chickens in big sheds their whole, short lives. Indoor reared pigs (when I was young I would often see pigs outside. Aside from those I reared myself a few years ago I haven’t pigs outside in probably 20 or 30 years). The list goes on.

Move these subsidies to from meat ‘producers’ to vegetable growers to lower vegetable prices and a healthier society with lower grocery bills would likely follow.

The mistake many people make when comparing ‘vegan’ food prices with meat based diets is to look for obvious direct replacements: Quorn mince, veggie burgers, etc.

Simply by making more of vegetables, grains, beans and lentils and perhaps looking to other cultures for meal ideas means a vegan diet can be much cheaper than a meat based one.

Beans (black beans are a favourite in our house) are both very cheap and incredibly healthy.
We often will have meals such as Cottage Pie and Chilie but use a mixture of different types of beans, lentils, mushrooms and other vegetables; no processed meat substitues necessary. We’ve fed big groups of meat-eating friends many times like this and has nothing but positive feadback.

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149

Of course, I try and have at least one or two vegetarian meals a week (my partner is a pescatarian(I think that is how you spell it) but only has 1 fish meal a week). I know what is around and what is achievable - but If you want to make a like for like comparison you can, and the prices aren’t at par.

That’s quite a broad brush - not every farmer operates these practices - not to mention isn’t it becoming increasingly favourable to “ethically” rear animals? Not that the supermarkets care mind.

25% by 2025 but that’s vegans and vegetarians - so the cattle will still need to be fed, chickens will still need to lay eggs - 75% will still eat meat. I don’t think its a base consumer change that is hard, its the overall societal framework and industry.

150

Sure, some farmers (ever fewer I’d suggest from everything I’ve seen, read, and witnessed) are worse than others.

Regardless, every animal that ends up on someone’s plate, every (commercially reared) hen that lays an egg that someone eats and every cow that is milked for someone to drink, is killed at an age which is just a small fraction of their natural life-span. Some people argue that that such animals are humanely killed. That seems a clear oxymoron.

151

Oh sure, I don’t disagree that it’s highly unethical - but ethics just for most - isn’t enough of a reason to justify a complete change in lifestyle. I’ll openly admit I’m the first one to admit eating animals is wrong.

I’m trying to cut down and reduce overall (honestly, more from the environmental angle) but I don’t think I ever see myself going completely meat-free

152

My interest - and the reason I went vegan - as a result of learning of the environmental damage being caused by animal agriculture.

The day I told my wife her response was ‘well I hope you don’t make yourself ill’. This prompted much research into the health aspects. There the evidence and science is clear: a vegan diet (a decent vegan diet) is among the healthiest way to eat. A couple of years in and I can tell. I’m a perfect weight (I’ve come down a few inches in jeans) and eat pretty much what I like when I like and feel great. My wife is eating probably 90% vegan too, with no prompting or encouragement from me.

In researching the subject I watched a handful of documentaries too (and read lots of reports): Having been a meat eater (and having reared animals for meat), it now seems clear to me that a vegan lifestyle is the only sensible option.

  • For health
  • For the environment
  • For animals

If at all curious (or even if not), why not give it a try for a month? See how you feel. There’s plenty of great resources out there with a semingly infinite amount of recipes and food suggestions.

I’d also thoroughly recommend the film by Simon Amstell - desribed as a sci-fi comedy. It’s on BBC iPlayer. Perhaps even more than some of the horific films (such as Earthlings, free to watch online) it just made eating animals and animal ‘products’ just seem absurd. (I think the clip and line about Nigella Lawson is probably what did it for me).

153

I’ve done some looking into it and some research - however I’ve tried and just didn’t really enjoy it.

I completely respect the arguments and why people should do it but at the same time:

These two arguments can be used for the majority of lifestyle choices people make.

  • Smoking
  • Drinking
  • Not taking public transport

the list could go on - effectively just because it is the right decision - doesn’t mean people will take it or even be bothered by it.

154

Fair point. I’d reply by saying that the evidence is very clear that a) animal agriculture is pretty much the most damaging thing for the environment (and ultimately the survival of life on Earth) and b) meat and other animal products are a huge contributor to many of the Western world’s (in particular) biggest killers such as heart disease, stroke, diabetes.

i.e. as a society we can’t afford to not make such changes.

155

This is the crux of the argument.

As a SOCIETY we can’t afford to NOT make the changes - but as individuals we are free to do whatever damaging things we want (within the bounds of the law obviously)

This is why mass-societal change is so difficult, something has to break before anything is thought about, adopted, or changed.

But it is my belief that people should be positively enforced for what they do, rather than continually beat down on by those who are “better” than them.

I know I am unlikely to give up meat whilst it is accessible - but I still try and do my bit for the environment - I got plastic free as much as is feasibly possible, I take public transport 99% of the time etc.

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156

Moving subsidies from meat to vegetables seems an obvious starting point!

Thankfully, big business, keen to cash in, are making eating a vegan diet easier every week with restaurants, supermarkets, cafes, Greggs even, falling over themselves to roll out more an more vegan-friendly foods. Granted, in many cases healthier options exist (although not necessarily healther options containing animal products).

I suspect that the current momentum will continue and gradually speed up. Pretty much every one that I speak with about being vegan (often it naturally comes up if I’m invited to theirs for dinner or we dine out together) is keen to point out that they are eating less and less meat. And pretty much every meat eater that I feed a meal at my house is hugely impressed and suprised at how good ‘vegan’ food can be. (Talking about vegan food seems so strange as, of course, so much of what everyone eats is ‘vegan’. - a reason why in time I really do think the balance will change and we won’t speak of vegans but of meat-eaters).

The likes of David Attenborough expressing their view that society needs to move away from animal agriculure, and of many big names sports stars reporting improved sporting prowess after turning vegan (Lewis Hamilton, Jermain Defoe, and many, many more), can only help move things along in (what I would say is) the right direction.

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157

I’m quite interested in trying some vegan meals. With food I’ve done in the past, if it doesn’t contain either meat or cheese I don’t feel satisfied after eating it

158

There are huge amounts of resources on the internet. When I first ‘started out’, this was one of my favourites:
https://thehappypear.ie/our-recipes/

They have many more on their YouTube channel:

And, although I’ve not read them, several books too.

Everything I tried was tasty, quick, healthy.

One thing to perhaps consider if you don’t feel satisfied… eat more! Add a tasty salad to meals, add a handful of beans (you can’t go wrong with black beans from a tin or carton). A sprinkling of nuts or seeds can liven up most things.

159

This looks good, thanks. I’m cooking for 1 tonight so might actually try something from there

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160

Both books from the ‘Bosh’ series (and all their online recipes) are amazing. Big, filling, delicious dishes mostly inspired from meaty classics, I dare to say some are even better than the original.

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161

unfortunately this is just propaganda.
you might actually want to read the methodology (on the few which do declare it) they often include things like rain water for meat, but not for vegetables. they often use massive feedlots in America to get the worst possible stats for meat, but use a tiny sustainable farm for veg stats, they totally ignore calories and nutrients. Its as bad as there’s a lot comparing a kilogram of vegtables compared to a kilo of meat, despite the vegetables have maybe a couple of hundred calories at best.
That ruminant animals when not in massive feedlots, like in a lot of the Uk (all the mountains national parks that have thousands of sheep on for example) are not only on land that cant easily be farmed for grains, but actually improve the soil and sequester carbon into the soil.

They misrepresent the amount of actual bioavailable nutrients in plants compared to meat.
they ignore land, Globally we have used nearly all available plant agricultural land up, without cutting down rainforests etc, we however have plenty of unused grazing land left for animals.

you might want to look into nutrition research that shows vegan and even vegetarian is bad for your health, the research from the "60s that showed benefits some of it was floored, other health benefits came not from being a vegan but the lack of processed foods, modern research shows that vegans are far more unhealthy than the normal diet (which is also really bad), now that so much vegan and vegetarian processed food is available.

Due to the war on meat, the public at large is now deficient in many micro nutrients (often plants contain the wrong form which is poorly absorbed, or poorly converted in the body, then you have things like oxilates that compound the issue), doesn’t kill us in the short term, but is part of the rise of elderly diseases. (although there have been several cases of parents killing children due to vegan diet)

you may want to look into the Seventh Day Adventists Church and see how far reaching their tendrils are on the food chain, research and education, all of which is extremely biased due to their religious believes.

you also may want to look at how devastating mass monocrop agriculture is, as well as agriculture in general, with fertilisers, pesticides, and the death of the soil, run off into streams and rivers etc.

Then how far food has to come from to be vegan, it is almost impossible to be vegan eating purely local and requires shipping from around the world. Where it is pretty easy to get all your micronutrients from a meat based diet(if you eat offal) from a dozen or so miles of your house.

in summary most modern farming is bad, but the propaganda fro reducing meat is quite literally killing thousands a year, whilst not actually achieving what they say environmentally.
Can you be vegan, absolutely but its damn hard work to be healthy into old age and requires a global supply chain.

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162

I gave them all this information, they ignore it, it’s not something they want to have in their reality.

As I’ve said, there’s a vegan thread, and this conversation is going no where. We don’t go into the vegan thread and do the same as is being done here.

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163

On the topic is delicious meat.

How do people like to cook their meat?