Meat Eaters

I wouldn’t go down that route, you’re now talking what… millions of years? So long that it has no bearing so i don’t think it would be useful for the discussion. We do have communities today though who have only ever eaten meat, or where meat has always been their primary food source.

We’re adaptable yes, which is why we can survive on a varied diet, but there are few foods where we can only survive on that single type of food source. The data is still out on if a plant based diet is really sustainable from birth until death, im sure it probably could be with modern technology, but i wouldn’t encourage anyone to do so today with their child.

Progress is human, whether we could do something in the past is irrelevant to what we can do today. A hundred years ago child-birth was 10x as dangerous as it is today, does that mean we should dissuade pregnancy today? If we have access to plant-based supplements, shouldn’t we use them?

The fact that you label Veganism an eating disorder is deeply offensive. Regardless of how you feel about an ethical and/or dietary choice, please do not make light of mental health disorders that are very serious. Although disordered eating can be enabled through restrictive diets it is intellectually dishonest to compare veganism to an eating disorder.

Although we might not have comprehensive studies covering the long term effects of veganism[1], what we do know is the long term effects of the average diet today: almost a million people every year die in America because of heart disease which is primarily caused by diet. More than 60% of people in the UK are classified as overweight, again primarily caused by diet.

As an individual you might be happiest consuming meat and you might consume meat in a way that is beneficial to your health, you might have a well balanced diet that is complemented by good exercise to provide you with great physical health but that is an experience shared by a minority of people, the majority of people who consume meat are obese.

You may wish to argue that you can eat meat in a way that is healthy, and you may wish to argue that plant-based diets can be unhealthy but to suggest that the average meat consumers diet is healthier than the average plant-based diet is absurd by any measure.

[1] There are lots of very healthy vegans and vegetarians who have been following their diet for decades so there is evidence, but as far as I know there aren’t any wide reaching studies covering this topic.

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I completely agree with you there is little to no proof of what is truly the best way to eat. What is true though is that attitudes to food need to change as does the way we farm both meat and plants to make them both mors sustainable to the planet.
We probably do eat a little too much meat and I do try to have meat free foods At least once a week I also ensure I eat oily fish once a week too and I always eat lots of veg and pulses etc in my diet.

The devils food! (I can’t eat these, it seems to be autoimmune related primarily with plants)

I eat meat and some fish, with some scattered greens. Interestingly if its green and is above ground it seems to be OK.

Sugar is a huge problem. Personally I think we need to move aware from foods which have been processed or have extra additives in them.

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But the diet they are eating is full of processed crap - it’s the added seed oil fats and refined sugars that cause the obesity and note these are from plant based sources. Heart disease didn’t increase because we eat meat, it increased when we pushed soya, high fructose corn syrup and refined sugar into the diet. The lowest rates of heart disease were found in the inuit - they lived on seal meat and fat. What caused their heart disease rate to increase? The importation of the standard American diet, full of wheat, sugar and seed oils. The massai live on beef and milk, studies find they have NO heart disease. Meat is not the problem here.

The optimum diet for humans is an omnivorous diet. It’s what we evolved to eat over millions of years. Ten thousand years of farming is simply not enough time to change that.

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Myth, not fact – the truth is they have lower life expectancy and more health problems.

The optimum[1] diet to get us where we are today may have been omnivorous but that does not mean the optimum diet for our continued existence is an omnivorous diet. The way that humans behave has changed so substantially in the last century alone that it’s impossible to look at what we did during our earliest years and use it to guide what we should do today. The humans hunting animals were not sitting at a desk 8 hours a day, they didn’t have healthcare, they weren’t taking a car to the supermarket to buy their dinner.

You can construct an omnivorous diet that is healthy however it is fact that the majority of omnivorous diets are not healthy. Yes, conceivably we could undertake a fundamental shift in the way that we produce and consume meat to make it a healthier part of our diets by reducing the amount that is consumed and by improving the quality – closely connected factors – but in my view given the environmental and ethical consequences that are inherent to meat I think a far more sensible solution is to simply cut meat out.

[1] A diet isn’t optimum just because it got us here today, it’s possible a different diet could have served us better.

This isn’t accurate, taurine isn’t an amino acid and is produced in the body from cysteine (which is an amino acid and is found in many plants).

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Sure, if you want to be pedantic it’s a sulfonic acid but it is usually grouped with other amino acids. It can be synthesised from cysteine, but it appears to be an inefficient process as vegans consistently measure at low levels compared to omnivores.

But you are attacking a minor point rather than the general argument which is that we evolved to be omnivores, we have so much to learn about how the body uses nutrients and many nutrients are simply either not available or have low bio-availabilty in plants. You can gamble with your health by excluding animal products but I believe you are damaging your long term health by doing so and I choose not to.

I’d suggest a text on evolution but I suspect it would be pointless. Over millions of years we evolved to eat the diet(s) that were available - we are selected to eat it.

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I wasn’t being pedantic, it’s an important distinction to make. Generally when people are talking about amino acids they mean the units that make up proteins - taurine isn’t one of them. Vegans measure at lower levels because they’re not consuming additional amounts, but that doesn’t mean that those lower levels aren’t sufficient. The healthy body makes the amount of taurine it needs.

I was correcting some misinformation because there’s enough of that on the internet. It wasn’t an attack.

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You’ve previously explained how modern food is bad, if we are selected to eat the food that is available to us then why is our modern food bad?

Probably the best video about the topic I’ve ever seen.

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I love Kurzgesagt, but it was funny when they suggest we feed 3.5 billion people with fodder crops.

Good points about factory farms, but not really about killing them. The good thing is there are lots of good options for buying meat from sources which aren’t factory farms.

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Trying to talk a meat eater into a vegetarian lifestyle is like trying to talk a smoker into quitting. It just won’t work. I say this as a meat eater who struggles daily with the ethical and environmental impact of eating meat but I just love meat

@M1cky

There’s definitely overlap between the two but I think the fundamental problem with meat is one of indoctrination and cognitive dissonance. Even if you know a behaviour to be wrong it can be very hard to break free from that behaviour if it is part of the foundation of you and everybody around you. I consumed animal products for most of my life and for many years I considered animal products to be wrong but turning that belief into action is very difficult when you enjoy it and everybody around you is doing it.

I think littering is a good comparable: if littering was socially acceptable and encouraged, how many of us would litter? Probably the majority, even though the majority of us at this point in time accept that littering is wrong and we do not do it, and would look down on those who do. The consequences would be the same, all it takes is a shift in how others behave and how they perceive our behaviour to change how we behave.

For me personally the transition from meat eater to vegetarian didn’t involve any shift in beliefs, I felt the same way about meat for years before I stopped eating it, the only difference is the day I stopped eating meat was the first day I believed I could stop. I had up until that point considered it too difficult, I had considered it to be too fundamental to my existence and that was reinforced by everybody around me: I loved meat, I ate it for every meal, I couldn’t even begin to imagine how I could eat without it and everybody around me ate meat. Sure, it was wrong but if everybody around me is fine with it, and I enjoy it, and I don’t see the consequences of it, does it matter that it’s wrong?

I think if I were to go back and try to convince me as a meat eater to quit I wouldn’t focus on the ethical or environmental arguments, instead I would focus on how it is achievable and if I truly believe something then I must make an effort towards implementing that belief in my life. Either I believe meat is wrong and so I take action or I don’t permit myself to hold that belief because if I don’t take action on what I believe, do I actually believe it? Thinking about it in terms of taking action towards a goal is much more helpful than thinking about it as an absolute: if I believe something I do every day is wrong, I can permit myself to do it every other day… and then once I’m doing that successfully, I can cut down to twice a week: I’m making progress towards what I believe to be right, and that’s consistent with the beliefs I hold, and I’m doing it in a sustainable way.

Cognitive dissonance is hard to deal with but you might wish to try thinking about each decision to eat meat as an active decision. Don’t start from meat as the default, start from plant based as the default, and try to justify each decision to eat meat using the value it provides to you through enjoyment relative to the harm it causes. You might find that every other day you crave meat so much that you think you can justify the harm that day but over time you may well find that you can go longer and longer without it, and hey, even if you only manage to skip every other day, that’s still cutting your consumption in half. Likewise you might find that over time you’re able to swap out certain things, maybe you love bacon so much that an alternative isn’t possible but you might find that you very much enjoy Beyond Meat burgers and that allows you to cut your beef consumption down substantially.

The biggest change I’ve made is thinking about things in terms of harm and costs. I don’t think about “right” vs. “wrong” rather I think “does my personal enjoyment of the beef burger on this menu justify the torture experienced by the animal, and the harm to the environment?” and the answer so far has always been no. That has been very helpful to me (in many aspects of my life) because seemingly arbitrary “right” and “wrong” designations are easy to dismiss.

Anyway, as time goes on and meat alternatives become more and more realistic it is becoming easier and easier to reduce meat consumption while continuing to enjoy the same flavours and experiences. The Beyond Meat burger is just the start of what we’ll see over the next decade and already it is getting very close to indistinguishable. I think over the next decade as social attitudes shift we’ll see a lot of people move towards plant-based diets because it’s easy and encouraged by our social circles – so even if you don’t think you can stop eating meat today, just being open to the idea and willing to try alternatives is helpful.

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So long as it’s processed it’ll be inedible for me for the most part, so these fake meats are basically all off the table.

I’ve no delusions on the impact of my life, I’m happy with the impact of eating meat or plants and the death both cause.

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Vegetables are an option though, no reason to process it or to use substitute meats. If you feel you couldn’t survive without meat that’s acceptable but most people can and millions do so without problems

Your belief is that it is wrong to eat meat but it isn’t my belief it is wrong. I’m happy to eat meat. I don’t believe it is wrong to eat meat and will continue to eat meat until my dying days. As I explained before, I offset my environmental impact massively right now and I hope my beliefs are respected as I respect vegan people’s views on this issue. When we don’t respect peoples different views is the start of a slippery slope.

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Remember this is based on the American model of farming too I’m the UK we have much stricter welfare rules and slaughter rules. Also all farms have to produce annual figures to the government on pollution and are heavily fined or loose subsidies if they don’t meet targets.
And as a nation we can help by buying all our food from more reliable and sustainable sources.

I eat meat and don’t struggle one bit ethically my parents are smallholders I have watched the lambs I eat be slaughtered and butchered I also hunt and eat what I kill. I know the animals we keep have hood healthy lives and are then killed humanly and respected. Also the ones I shoot are done swiftly with as little suffering as possible.

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