How banks deal with the clocks changing

By hard-coded, I just meant set to that time year-round rather than auto-adjusted to meet a physical geographical time. It’s not “select a place to keep time to” (e.g. London), it’s “select a time zone” and as of now, it never automatically changes unless somebody is going to change the way it’s set up. And UTC vs GMT is splitting hairs: yes, it’s the same physical time zone and just the “branding” of it, which is irrelevant when we are talking about systems code almost nobody will ever see.

Yes it is, but that’s how traditional banks do it. I was referring to traditional banks as a comparison. Effectively, to do it that way would be the way to do it if you didn’t want to make any system changes. So the “simplest” adjustment to the tech-stack, although actually a lot of manual work.

They could clearly do it all at once in one second, co-ordinated across the bank, if they wanted. They could also code the change into their systems so it happened automatically, I’m sure. Even if they didn’t want to do that, my point really was alluding to the fact that even manually doing it all is only twice a year, probably covering 12 hours maximum downtime across the year over two nights: the impact of that downtime is likely minimal to most customers who will be asleep, but the impact of having the “wrong time” for six months every year is far-reaching and significant. And the 12 hours downtime is the worst-case scenario of manually forcing the change as traditional banks do. Monzo could do it in a much better way, I’m sure.

There has to be one time across the bank’s systems, but not necessarily the same all year round. @N26throwaway’s issue was actually caused by a single “reference time” being used. If he had done the same thing three weeks ago, he wouldn’t have been charged. Only now we are on British Summer Time, and Monzo is effectively not as it’s reference time is fixed, so midnight for a common person is 11pm “for Monzo”. That’s just wrong. I’m questioning the whole idea of a single reference time. Time used by Monzo’s systems should match what real people consider the time to be. For example, if the clock on the BBC News channel was wrong half the year and the answer given was “it’s in UTC, it’s the BBC’s reference time” everybody would think that was mad! This case is no different.

Time has to be consistently matching, obviously, across all the bank’s systems. That’s the single correct time, at any one moment. There’s no reason why it can’t ever be changed. It could, in fact, be changed easily twice a year to match real time. All other banks manage it and their systems are far more of a mess than Monzo’s, so it should not be impossible to do.

They need to change the reference/server time to avoid these issues though. The server time is the system’s idea of the “correct” time in calculating fees, daily allowances, etc.

I’m not drawing a technical parallel, that misses the point; I’m only drawing a parallel between how different banks treat time as a concept. This wouldn’t have happened at a traditional bank because traditional banks keep the “real time” in the UK as their reference time all the time. Monzo should too. As you say, I’m sure that would be achievable for Monzo without multi-hour downtime and manual overrides of time records in their systems. But, to emphasise the point, there is a reason why the other banks bother to do all that twice a year - ensuring an accurate time is very important!

There’s a danger in assuming just because Monzo has a micro-services architecture, the way it’s set up must be better, self-evidently. @N26throwaway has just experienced an issue directly caused by this oddity which has caused (minor) financial loss. It could equally have caused significant loss. That’s not better for him however you look at it.

Yes, I assume it does too.

But it’s probably just a separate instance of Monzo’s tech stack hard-coded to UTC-5, which is East Coast time not including summer time adjustment, so I suspect the same issue would be possible there.

Good point, but I personally suspect it’s that each component is set to time zone UTC and that’s it: to go back and unlock it, as you say, may be a very big job. They could either change all their code to point to a new reference time (and change the reference time when clocks change) or, what I suspect big traditional banks do, let systems think you are on GMT or UTC all the time but simply “force” the change by manually overriding the time to create a change when required.

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Seven months. We live in British Summer Time for the majority of the year.

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Good point - I wasn’t thinking about the end of October being when clocks changed back, so almost all of October is included within “Summer Time” too!

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Yep I wasn’t being pedantic. It actually makes the strict use of GMT worse!

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Yes, I agree!

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To continue with the pedantic theme, I’d just like to add my (undoubtably unpopular) opinion that it makes much more sense to stick with GMT all year round. The sun should be at its zenith at or near mid day, not 1pm.

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But most people don’t have days that run from 4am to 4pm in the summer - it makes far more sense to have lighter evenings than light extremely early mornings!

Sunrise tomorrow is 06:08 in London (so 05:08 GMT) and sunset is 19:53 (18:53). Not sure where you are for sunset to be 4pm now, let alone in summer.

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I sort of conflated two things in my post: the average working day being 9am to 5pm (and it therefore being desirable to have free “light hours” after work); and the GMT sunrise time of around 4am (even 3:30am) at the height of the summer which is clearly too early.

Therefore, Summer Time makes sense in my view as it shifts the lighter hours into the evening instead of them being “wasted” early in the morning.

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I spent most of my working life doing shift work, so the 9 to 5 wasn’t a thing for me (work started at 6 or 7, and finished at 2 or 3.

But if you like daylight in the evening, go live in Spain. It’s like the sun never sets in summer because they are on the same longitude as us, but an hour ahead. It’s like double summer time.

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It really doesn’t.

Woken up hours too early, no light in the middle of the evening, but at least you’ll have the sun overhead at midday.

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Or the Outer Hebrides! Our sunset tomorrow is 8:35pm, a good hour and a half after yours. Summer here gets pretty insane, which is exemplified by BST. Sunset begins at almost 11pm BST, with sunrises as early as 4:30am. But it never quite becomes properly night time, there’s always a bit of sunlight lingering. It’s a weird experience.

Living in BST up here screws with my circadian rhythm, where midnight has me feeling like it’s 6pm. As does GMT in winter, where 4pm feels like midnight. I think we should flip the changes up here, if we have to bother with changes at all. I’d personally rather we stopped this though. I’m in the GMT all the time camp too, but not that fussed which we settle with, just that we settle on one of them.

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Thank you. That’s all I want. Can’t wait for October!

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Yes, I read an article about that a while ago, and how the resulting Spanish 10pm dinner was contributing to a dangerously sleep deprived nation!

That actually sounds very nice, frankly it would be even worse without BST! Who would want sun to rise at 3:30am, and 11pm sunset makes more sense if the hour has to go one side or the other (which, of course, it does)?

I agree that winter is grim enough already though, and I live in the South of England. I probably do have Seasonal Affective Disorder, to be honest.

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Not as serious as the overdraft situation, but it affects other aspects of the app too which annoys me. E.g. during BST, the number of days remaining in “left to spend” updates at midnight (as you’d hope), but the marker on the left to spend bar doesn’t update and move to its new position until 1am. So it’s not even consistent.

I think there are other inconsistencies too, but can’t think off the top of my head.

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The other obvious thing I can think of is impact on daily allowances.

So ATM withdrawal limit, bank transfer limit, etc.

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It delays scheduled transfers to and from your pots by an hour too, not that the scheduled time stated in the app has ever been a reliable indicator anyway. Same situation with standing orders.

Direct debits aren’t affected though. Which means your direct debit will be taken before your transfer to your bills pot is processed if they have happen to occur on the same day. Means you have to do some after the fact admin to cater for it.

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Sometimes I struggle to tell the time to this day, never mind what time the banks choose.

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You are not alone!

Apparently almost a fifth of 25 to 34 year olds sometimes struggle to tell the time, and more than a fifth of 18 to 24-year-olds struggle to understand a conventional clock with hands - only half of this age group, known as Generation Z, say that they never struggle to tell the time.

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So my chat with Monzo was closed the other day and I was asked to rate my experience. I’m not sure what they want me to say here.

Just found an email from Monzo in my junk folder to someone to say my issue was escalated to them to investigate and that they’re allowed 54 days to do this. So it’s due by the end of WWDC day.

I get the impression no one has actually read what my issue is yet, just that it’s been marked as a complaint. Guess I’ll report back on June 6th if I get my 12p back or not!

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