Depends what you mean by “ditching science”. If they’ve had Covid then “science” (i.e. peer-reviewed studies) has shown that they probably have better immunity to Covid (and hence infecting others) than a vaccinated person. As a clinically extremely vulnerable person myself, I’d have no problem being treated by such a person.
You have to be careful defining “following science”. For many people, that will be following the mainstream media (especially the BBC). They’ve instigated the Trusted News initiative, which more or less promotes vaccines at all costs, as well dumbing down discussion around the origins of SARS-CoV-2. I’d personally rather follow scientific debate.
I’m at work so don’t have time to exhaustively check many studies - but that’s what you need to do. Not only to see where the trends are, but to check each study for bias, etc.
This part I agree with. Private businesses can do what they want. In the case of companies, for example, if an employee isn’t vaccinated there is significantly more chance the employeee will need to take time off, no company should bear that risk.
In terms of entering pubs and restaurants, they can put signs up but I doubt many are likely to ban people, it would cause arguments and lose them business, but if they really wanted to it’s not a protected characteristic so they are entitled to. Unvaccinated people don’t have the status of the disabled.
The immunity from an infection can wane faster than the vaccines and Omicron is particularly good at reinfecting people who’ve had covid before.
I’m also clinically vulnerable and I expect clinicians and staff in clinical settings to do what they can to keep us safe. We can avoid unnecessarily busy pubs but we can’t avoid medical visits.
It depends (according to my respiratory consultant) to a certain extent on age. Younger people tend to have protection around the same (or slightly better) from a Covid infection than the vaccine. With older people it tends to be the other way round, so over 65s and CEVs should definitely get vaccinated (I’ve had four). It also depends on how severe the infection was.
There’s no argument that the vaccines protect against severe disease (in those who mount an adequate immune response) because T cell immunity is conserved between Covid variants. However, I’ve yet to see any convincing data that the vaccines are any more effective in preventing or spreading symptomatic infection of Omicron.
Excuse my ignorance here, but what’s wrong with doctors having the natural immunity AND the vaccine? Surely that’s even better?
Why are the people who were vaccinating the public and saying it was safe, now refusing the vaccine? I find that really worrying.
More data has emerged regarding the safety of mRNA vaccines. Although rare, the incidence of myocarditis in young men following the vaccination is greater than that of myocarditis following a Covid infection. Sorry, I can’t quote a study - a GP told me this.
Statistically, the vaccine is safe, but I can understand why NHS staff who have expertise in the field would rather not be vaccinated after looking at the risk vs benefit to themselves.
Have a look at this interview with Steve James, the consultant who told Sajid Javid that he didn’t want the vaccination:
When it comes to NHS staff, my feelings are mixed. I think the NHS has the right to enforce vaccines (they already do) and I think all NHS staff should be vaccinated.
But more than that I worry about the practicalities of losing several thousand NHS staff in the middle of a recruitment crises and staff shortages. It’s risky and could end up doing far more damage than good.
I do wonder how many will cave at the last minute.
There’s a BBC news story today talking to people who don’t want the jab and in there it mentions that people have got the jab despite initially refusing.
It’s one thing to post online with your nutjob theories, it’s completely different to lose your job over it.
And this is what I mean when I talk about ignoring the science. If they are disconnecting from peer reviewed studies that show the vaccine to be the safest way to protect against covid then what else are they ignoring?
There are a range of vaccines and people are given different combos if clinical factors require it.
The NHS is a broad church, so it’s highly likely that the people who are refusing the vaccine are not the same people who were vaccinating the public. Midwives, occupational therapists, etc. So there’s scope for people to both work for the NHS and have differing views on vaccines.
While I have a little sympathy for staff who say “I’ve caught COVID so my natural immunity means I don’t want to deprive people who need it of a jab”, that sympathy ends when they stick to their guns after vaccines being mandated.
Also, as both kinds of immunity wane over time, if that’s their initial objection, they shouldn’t object to boosting the immunity after a certain period.
Broadly speaking, there seems no good reason to refuse a mandatory jab to keep your job.
Blockquote More data has emerged regarding the safety of mRNA vaccines. Although rare, the incidence of myocarditis in young men following the vaccination is greater than that of myocarditis following a Covid infection. Sorry, I can’t quote a study - a GP told me this.
Blockquote
I’m not sure that is true, it certainly wasn’t with the original strains. This study in the USA found that incidents of myocarditis after covid were higher than those after a vaccine. Position may have moved as a result of omicron being the major variant in the UK but I’ve not heard of any studies showing this and given this original study looked at data over 6 months theres probably not been enough time to know for certain with Omicron.
Yes, and I’d expect them to take that into account when making their decision.
Personally, I’d be happy being treated by somebody who was wearing at least a KN95 mask and who was doing regular lateral flow tests (which I understand NHS staff have to do).
I’d be happy too. I understand those who wouldn’t, but I question if that’s stigma or science, given the overall risk level difference is probably tiny.
