Change of Address Discussion (spun out of Starling Feedback thread)


(Jamie 🏳️‍🌈) #1

Not so acquainted with the Fraud Act then?


Starling Feedback
(knows someone who knows Tom quite well) #2

he’s not exactly gaining anything though is he?


(Andre Borie) #3

Where’s the fraud exactly? I live at that address at the moment, just that I have no time or desire to waste hours of my time updating it with every company out there and then wait for them to send me a printed bill (Starling is legacy and asks you to take a photo, can’t just throw a PDF at it).

If I was gaining something I would understand your concern, but here the only « gain » is a seemingly unreliable bank account from a bank that hasn’t heard of PDF bills. :joy:


(Jamie 🏳️‍🌈) #4

Starling is an interest bearing account so, arguably, yes there is a gain. It also exposes the bank to a risk of loss which is an alternative characteristic of the offence.


(Mark Embling) #5

Can you print the PDF bill and take a photo of that? I know npower’s PDF bills are identically formatted to those they would send in the post anyway, so maybe others are too?

That seems less prone to anyone suggesting it might be fraud (I’m no lawyer, but I don’t see how it possibly could be unless you altered the PDF first).


(Andre Borie) #6

Yeah that’s the idea, but of course this means getting access to a printer and wasting time. This is quite a disappointment for an app-only bank to be honest.


#7

Whatever your argument it’s still wrong and could be considered fraudulent IMO.

Find some time to update your address for sake of your financial security and credit report.


(Jamie 🏳️‍🌈) #8

If you create your own document, purporting to be ‘official looking’ (on another thread you advocated using downloadable media kit images) in order to ‘prove’ you live at a particular address so that Starling will give you an account, you’re committing fraud by false representation, and a separate offence of making or supplying articles for use in fraud.

In the former, if you:

  • made a false representation
  • dishonestly
  • knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
  • with intent to make a gain for yourself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss

you have made out the offence. Your opinions on Starling’s ‘outdated, legacy’ practices are immaterial.


(Andre Borie) #9

Fair enough, that’s your opinion and I respect it. In the meantime I won’t wait (or maybe I will if I don’t find the time to take care of this) an entire month for the next bill to generate with my new address so I’ll happily grab their last bill and stamp my new address on it.

As far as my credit is concerned I’ve updated the address with Monzo and my credit card provider so I should be okay, it’s just the dozens of other companies I can’t be arsed to deal with so they can have my old address (not that this changes anything - if there’s something important they’ll email or call me).

Thanks for being concerned though, I appreciate it!


(Valeri) #10

If only we had centralized system like in Denmark where you have to update your address only at one place…


(Jamie 🏳️‍🌈) #11

I wasn’t giving you my opinion, I was explaining the law.

Sadly, I used to respect your opinions on security and tech on this forum, but your refusal to recognise that what you are doing is a criminal offence, and to incite others to do the same (on the other thread) means I respect your opinions less so now.

Bragging about your actions on a public forum run by another bank, with (apparently) your photo and real name visible is, quite frankly, a ridiculously stupid thing to do.


(Richard Grey) #12

You don’t need to gain anything. It would be covered by the Criminal Attempts Act. There are two offences of note:

  1. Possession of articles for use in fraud (Section 6)

  2. Making or supplying articles for use in frauds (Section 7)

Both offences are covered by the Fraud Act 2006. You will find the CPS charging guidelines here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/fraud_act/#a13

You complete the offence when you create a document that you then supply to another, as being an original document coming from a third party.


(Richard Grey) #13

Andre, just a quick heads up. You’re admitting to the preparation of an offence under British Law on a public forum.

You’re also admitting to it on a forum that is run by a company who provide you with a product, that is a regulated product by the Prudential Regulation Authority.

This post needs to be flagged. If Monzo don’t deal with it, or provide words of advice, they could be in a bit of a pickle, and I’m sure nobody wants that!


#14

Should Jonas be arrested too?

Watch from 03:27

I think you guys are just being silly.


(Jamie 🏳️‍🌈) #15

Are you seriously arguing that in that clip the CEO of a British bank is advocating forging an identity document?

Seriously??!

Edit: Read this post in a tone of complete disbelief and incredulity. See below for my clarification.


#16

He did not say Jonas actually used something like that. He found it easier to make one which obviously is easy for some people but it doesn’t excuse the fact it’s wrong and could apparently be a criminal offence.

Monzo are working to change the system not go against the system I think they will not endorse something like this at all.


#17

@tom can you please clarity this what happened, and are you really advocating something fraudulent?


(Jamie 🏳️‍🌈) #18

Let me be clear on my last post. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY Tom was suggesting anyone should commit any criminal offence.


#19

He couldn’t prove his address when he came to the UK so used a piece of paper and a laser printer to forge a proof. I agree with Tom that it’s daft that you need these sort of proofs rather than having an all knowing system in place.

What’s it to you anyway if Andre wants to create his own document rather than spend hours writing to people. Are you the chief of police, a leading law maker or just a busy body on a forum with an axe to grind against a particular forum user?


#20

Thanks for taking time to write this here :slight_smile: