Payment made from deleted card (again)

In April 2022, Monzo allowed a payment to be processed from a deleted card. They eventually realised that they’d screwed up and refunded the payment. - Payment made from deleted virtual card

This happened again at the weekend, the fraud department doesn’t appear to be reading anything I’m saying to them, and just keeps sending the same questions (Do I recognise the payment etc) They have asked me this question 3 times now, always a different person, a new person comes, asks me those questions and then never responds.

I have no idea how to actually get somebody to read the messages I’m sending and to break out of this ridiculous loop I’m in.

How did Monzo support become so utterly useless!


This feels like a relevant question though? Do you?

The relevant question is that Monzo shouldn’t be paying out of a card that has been deleted. Yes, I recognise the payment.

Is it acceptable that a cancelled and expired card can still have payments taken? Why isn’t that point accepted and addressed rather than trying to deflect the blame elsewhere.

I’m not sure it is relevant. If the card is deleted, it should not be able to be used - it should be a straight decline for the merchant. Whether the customer recognises the payment is a step further than what should have happened (the decline).


It’s still very relevant.

If they don’t recognise it, then it’s a fraudulent transaction which needs to be charged back by the bank and refunded to the customer.

If they do recognise it, then it’s either an error with the app somewhere, or it’s a merchant who have presented without a proper authorisation - which would be a merchant dispute.

These cases are dealt with in different ways by the bank and probably by different teams, so yes it’s relevant. As the OP does recognise it, I’d be trying to speak to the disputes team rather than the fraud team.


That’s an assumption, it depends on how it was processed.

Certain presentments can’t be blocked by the bank. If it’s one of those, it’s a dispute not a bank error, the bank is just doing what it’s obligated to do. See Dan’s reply to the original thread for more context.

Even on a card that’s been cancelled?

Because that’s the point of contention and it doesn’t sound right to me.


Yes. Very occasionally, balances can go into negative even after an account is closed.

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Interesting. I was always under the presumption that once a card has been cancelled your account is safe and you can rest easy.

If a fraudster can still use my stolen card details in certain circumstances after they’ve stolen them, and I’ve reported them stolen, that’s very concerning.

I think the bank should just be blocking them in the first instance, and I’m surprised that’s not the case (especially if it’s because they’re not allowed to, as Dan implied).


After digging a little, I believe that this is the same payment that was taken two years ago, from the same card. They took eight failed attempts, then the ninth went through.

So it appears that a four year old expired card is somehow being charged, and Monzo doesn’t see any problem with that.

I was very much under the impression that a card that wasn’t live, couldn’t be charged. It seems this isn’t correct.

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It isn’t the account that has been closed, it is the card that has expired / been deleted. The account is still in use, I just don’t think that Monzo should be paying money from my account on a virtual card that has expired and been deleted.


I think this involves an amount of manipulation of the payment process that can only really be done by a merchant. I recall branches of Enterprise car rentals had some sort of technique to send presentments through based on completely different prior authorisations through some sort of manual POS manipulation (this was several years ago, no idea if it could still exist). I don’t think it’s something that a fraudster can achieve by just trying to buy stuff.


I’m surprised you were still under this impression given that a Monzo staff member clarified it wasn’t the case in your last thread :sweat_smile: edit: I suppose he did say he’d had some Mojitos…

But to be clear, this isn’t exactly the case, it’s mostly the case with the occasional exception as far as I understand.

Deleting/replacing a card doesn’t mean it ends all authorities you granted to it, so a merchant can process the old card, which then forwards to a new current card.

I’m :face_with_thermometer: at the moment so can’t think of the correct terminology but it is possible, sorry.

You’d need monzo to either block the merchant or just end your subscription with the merchant and ask for a refund if you explain to them you were meant to cancel.

It’s annoying me I can’t think what it’s called. :melting_face:

Sounds like you do know who the merchant is so you’ll need to take it up with them, it’s not fraud, but if you did cancel and can provide evidence of that; you can dispute it.

Got there in the end.


If this was the case, they wouldn’t have needed to have eight rejections - and they wouldn’t have done the same thing two years ago.

This was also a virtual card attached to a now deleted pot, I should not have to worry about a deleted card being reconnected to the current card.

When a virtual card is deleted, it should no longer be possible to charge it in any way.

Finally, when I have had cards replaced, I never select to have details updated with vendors.


They probably tried the proper way and then did it the other way.

But you should be cancelling, not running away and hoping it works.


Pay. Your. Bills.

Or cancel them.

It’s on you.


I think that is a different process akin to tip adjustment in the USA, agreed with Mastercard and Visa at network level. Certain categories of merchant may, for various reasons, preauthorise a charge and need to change what they are actually asking for at presentment. In the case of tip adjustment, it is allowed to be a certain percentage higher in those sectors only. In the case of car hire, it is probably recognised that certain customers may need to pay penalty fees, etc, so a high figure at presentment from a small preauthorisation is probably approved.

This wouldn’t normally be the case at other merchants and it shouldn’t be possible at all unless something was also put through at authorisation to prove that the cardholder did, in some way, authorise charges from the merchant in question. This prevents the system from being open to widespread abuse.

It also shouldn’t mean deleted cards are still “valid” for new charges, although old authorisations may carry over using Visa & Mastercard’s card number updater systems and/or, if the card purchase was a subscription, it may have been processed as a Continuous Payment Authority - continuing to be valid as the customer changes card details.

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Indeed apart from the presentments weren’t matched to pre-auths intended for that. I do also remember they could be automatically charged back though as they didn’t meet Mastercard rules, as in they hadn’t been properly authorised (and shouldn’t have been possible but again I think there was a way to manipulate a manual POS to make it happen anyway).

Maybe it’s not possible now (I just counted the years and… oh my time flies :sweat_smile:), although Dan’s reply on the other thread suggests something like it may still be possible.

In the past they could also be charged back though as they weren’t in line with Mastercard rules. I know these rules have definitely changed a lot too.

using the scenario OP described, does anyone know if this issue could arise from use of a virtual card that was subsequently deleted/expired?