In which case given the evidence for banks not refunding this kind of fraud is literally banks saying “do not do this” and you don’t seem to have much evidence at all to suggest banks will refund, I would argue we have currently more evidence that you won’t get refunded than if you do.
Fraud refunds come from somewhere… someone pays them. Basic approaches to security are our responsibility as card users.
I’m not supporting the noncompliant procedure, I’m saying the burden any fraud issues caused by these should and probably would be with the organisation responsible for them in the first place. Even if the card being surrendered isn’t recorded as part of the individual frauds then Visa/Mastercard can join the dots and will order PCI compliance investigations at the merchants own expense which will flag all this stuff up.
You would see it with your eyes as the card moves from the cardholder’s hand toward the payment terminal. Particularly easy if the cardholder taps upside down.
I think you’re misconstruing my challenge that the cardholder would be liable in these circumstances as an advice to not bother with taking care of security. Can you perhaps see the two are slightly different arguments?
Do you mean “wouldn’t be liable” as that’s how I’ve taken your previous arguments, and if I’ve misread apologies.
Who do you think is responsible in these situations then? Who’s ultimately paying the price if I give my card to a stranger and walk away from it?
Depends on the motive the cardholder and the presentation of the ‘stranger’. If it was some dude in the street who offered to do a trick, obviously that’d be on me. If it was a pool hall and I had my details snatched while I played, that’d be on the merchant.
This is all totally academic because if you have had your card ‘swiped’ (almost never done that way nowadays, in the UK at least, AIUI) somehow you don’t know which miscreant caused it to happen. You’d simply ring and say ‘unrecognised transactions’, they’d go through a list and ask you to identify the unrecognised ones and that’d be the end of it. They flag your card and Visa/Mastercard look after the rest.
Who pays the bill ultimately is an entirely separate conversation and depends a little on perspective, I suspect we both have a view which isn’t dissimilar tho.
I’m pretty sure the merchant will have something to the effect of “we do not take responsibility for items left” in the same way they do with bags in a cloakroom.
In which case, who?
Of course if you don’t tell them they don’t know and might just refund in full, but if it’s a large amount they will ask and as I’ve said, so far more evidence suggests banks will not look fondly on you leaving your card unsecured behind a bar with strangers and not to mention access for anyone broadly and would not pay out.
I see you’ve never been through a PCI investigation 
I assure you that wouldn’t wash.
I have, and I can tell you the amount of investment the business had to go through to sustain its ability to continue trading was huge. I’m talking about locks being changed, processes being modified to descope, investment in compliant but technologically less advanced equipment - all had to be evidenced as installed so the infosec firm would sign off that we had regained compliance. So many changes to our physical presence even though the cause of the PCI incident was completely unrelated to any of the physical changes we had to make!
They definitely would not accept a point to a boilerplate notice on the wall as an acceptable descope such that they’re ‘not liable to what happens to your card when we take it from you’.
I have not been through admittedly, but so far there’s little to no evidence that this would be refunded in most cases, and as I’ve said before a little more evidence that banks would challenge this.
We’ll have to agree to disagree!
Is leaving cards anywhere a thing any more?
Usually it’s a pay/take details so we can charge if we need to.
If you did decide to leave it somewhere, it’ll most probably fall under negligence on customer part (few situations may be considered otherwise IE the instance of vulnerable customers)
Negligence and vulnerable are not the same, let’s stick with negligent for this topic of pool halls or museums.
If the merchant abused the card details that’s where chargebacks/disputes come into play.
Yeah I remember you saying, still crazy 
can’t they just take a card machine 
BNP France has a Gold biometric card available, for the price of €50.
I might give it a try when I go to France later this year
Imagine their confusion at you leaving a frozen, numberless Chase card with them.
Clearly they would identify you as a charlatan. Obviously every card must at least have numbers printed on it even if they’re not embossed 
Love that blue one!
As requested, here are the ‘highlights’ of my dad’s debit/credit card collection
The Hilton Honours credit card,
TAP Victoria Gold AMEX (Discontinued in 2018 when AMEX left Portugal - succeeded by the TAP Miles&Go Classic, Gold and Platinum mastercards)
Millennium BCP (International) Prestige debit card, and finally the HSBC Gold and the old-school Premier card.
I have my little collection which I will post soon.
You’re lucky. My dad don’t let me near his cards!
Didn’t know if anyone had popped the reverse of the new printed card. Exactly the same as plus, but hot coral. No signature strip now either.
Does anyone have a photo of a real life RBS or NatWest Reward Black credit card? Does it look as nice as the Premier debit cards? I’ve seen the design on the RBS website.
