EVs 🔌


(Hugh Wells) #1

As we enter 2018, I wanted to see what people’s thoughts were on electric vehicles and where the technology will go!

Tesla are ramping up Model 3 production after a huge hiatus, and although they are seen as the pioneers there are many alternatives now, both being announced and entering production :tada:
What do people think will happen in the coming months? Will Tesla get it’s act together, or will the established companies take over their early lead, with established production facilities and support networks?

I personally have an interest as I currently drive a gas (petrol) car, and a) it’s expensive b) it’s not very efficient! :stuck_out_tongue:


(Allie) #2

Gas as in actual gas (LPG), or gas in the American sense that is totally unrelated to actual gas? Gas (actual gas) actually isn’t too bad efficiency wise, it’s one of the more efficient fuels you can run, but petrol, not so much.

If it is a gas/petrol car and you’re primarily running it on gas, that’s about as good as you can get in reality, considering the environmental impact of most electric generation (obviously it leans more toward electric if your electric supply is all green).

I’m guessing you probably mean gas in the American sense (especially since you put petrol in brackets) but since we’re on a British forum I’m unsure! It could be a gas car that can run on petrol as a backup.


(Hugh Wells) #3

Sorry, I’m Canadian so I tend to use phrases from across the pond: petroleum powered vehicle :stuck_out_tongue:


(Allie) #4

Ah, I was about 99% sure but just clarifying since there are actual gas/petrol hybrid cars. Have you considered one as a greener, more efficient option without relying on electricity?


#5

Tesla, along with Musks other projects always get delayed because the man is soooo ambitious. Like the model 3 production wasn’t held up for any serious reason other than the fact that full production requires more lithium batteries than the world could physically manufacture. So Tesla has to build its own factory.

Regardless, the Tesla line up of EV’s are still best in class by a long way. The model 3 is as big as a Mercedes C class, but costs less to about the same and has more range than any other electric car out there. Add that and the damn thing has tech in it to self drive that a £600,000 Rolls Royce doesn’t.

But really if your like me living in a flat with shared off road parking EV ownership is just a dream because there is no way I can charge the thing.

However, some of these new plug in hybrids, some of them look great. But hold the stats up to the Tesla’s and they still come off lacklustre.


(Colin Robinson) #6

I’ve just sent an email to our management to see if anything can be done about this. Luckily I’m on the ground floor and the parking bay is right outside my window.


(Frank) #7

I am an avid listener of Ride The Lightning and The Tesla Show podcasts. I’m sure the delay was because they had to rewrite the code for the production line robots (originally provided by a third oarty).

I think the idea of an electric car is awesome and can not wait for one to be available that I don’t think is completely ripping me off.

The new leaf looks great and has much better range than the old one but the cost seems ridiculous when you compare to the model 3 (I know not yet available). The residuals are so terrible though for PCP.

It’s like the companies are taking advantage of of the government allowance to keep the price up rather than make them more affordable.

My current PCP is due around the time the model 3 lands in the UK so here’s hoping.

There was a YouTube video recently from Fully Charged that predicts the EV roadmap to 2030.


(Frank) #8

I briefly looked at the A3 e-tron but £5k for 20-30 miles of electric driving between charges just didn’t stack up. And it seems the same for most others. Only the Toyota C-HR seemed the most value for money but then it’s attached to a 1.8 petrol that just sounds and feels wrong :man_shrugging:t2:


(Andre Borie) #9

Really excited for EVs but at the moment I can’t justify buying any car - it would be more of a headache than anything else in London.


(Frank) #10

There was another video of shell putting charging point on their forecourts. While this doesn’t solve charging at home it should pave the way for many more accessible charging points.


(Tony Hoyle) #11

I’m just waiting to see if the 60kw leaf measures up… the Model 3 will be an expensive car with no discounts (Nissan discount like hell by manipulating the GFV… you won’t be able to pick up a model 3 for £250 a month), so may be out of my price range despite liking things like software updates etc.

Of course by the time 2020 comes about when it’s actually possible to compare these things, there will be other options… Maybe hyundai will get their head out of their arses and decide to sell more than about 3 ioniqs a year. Maybe the volt/bolt will come here (unlikely, I know). Maybe even the Electric Mini will come off the drawing board.


(Michael) #12

I like the idea of an EV, I’m curious about them and try to keep up with what’s going on in the world with them. Some may not agree with my points, but it’s just opinion and I’m interested in the discussion around them. Lots of the points are somewhat based on living in the southwest with limited access to fast charging points and lots of single track roads, a roads and the odd motorway / link road. But there’s a few things with EV’s preventing me from getting one in thier current state, in no particular order:

  1. I have to park around 100m from my house so until lampposts become charging points it’s not feasible for me. My house is at least 50m from the road too.

  2. At the moment, aren’t there various petrol cars available with a total (including manufacturing) carbon footprint less than EV’s? I think it’s based on 100k miles though. I drive a 9 year old diesel (60mpg) and a 43 year old petrol (25mph). The footprint of continuing to use the older car is probably less than making a new car. Unfortunately cars are still made regardless of if anyone buys them. So the new manufacturing footprint will always be there.

  3. I think I also noticed a few people mentioning range was reduced when it’s rather cold outside, which is expected from batteries but until the issue is solved, EV’s won’t be suitable everywhere.

  4. Crashes. The batteries don’t like being squashed, and can catch fire. These cars have the potential to reignite themselves as cells become damaged by the burning cell next to them. So a damaged car could reignite itself for days with the cells constantly damaging nearby ones.

  5. Battery wear. It’s new technology so somewhat untested on a large scale. What happens when they wear out? Will the manufacturer offer replacements, or do they simply offer a trade in against a newer model?

  6. Aerodynamics. Why are some cars shaped like bricks with wheels? Surely the airflow is more important on heavier and limited range vehicles, especially ones which where you can’t just add more fuel in minutes to get them moving again.

  7. Traffic jams on motorways. Say upwards of 20% of vehicles on a major road (M5 / M6) are stuck in a 5 hour traffic jam due to an accident. Half the owners don’t think and keep thier radio, heaters, etc running and the batteries go flat. All these cars then have to be moved before the regular cars can leave when the accident has been cleared, I’m not sure how well they push either.

Does this extra delay on the petrol cars just cancel out carbon offset the EV’s had?

There’s a similar issue with cyclists on winding A/B roads, drivers slow down and drive uneconomically while waiting to overtake the cyclist, then accelerate hard (also uneconomically) to overtake, then probably continue to drive badly to make up for lost time due to being slowed down.

In these cases, are individuals trying to reduce thier own carbon footprint with cycling / EV’s potentially causing other road users to have a higher carbon footprint?


(Tony Hoyle) #13

Fair enough… although public charging will eventually be commonplace - I can imagine supermarkets just rolling out a post per parking space.

The carbon footprint of an EV is almost entirely at its creation, whereas for petrol cars it continues to increase (more so as it gets less efficient), so an EV will be better over time. I think the comparison I’ve seen reckoned for any car >1 year old an EV is better.

That’s a range issue… time will solve that. Once you have 300 miles who cares if you lose 10%? Heck, the average person barely does 20 miles a day…

Crashing with a few gallons of potentially explosive liquid isn’t pretty either… There’s no evidence EVs are worse at this (they should be much better given correct construction, but we need more data really).

In practice it hasn’t been an issue - the UK is particularly kind to batteries… some of the earliest EVs are seeing 80% capacity at 6-7 years (with older battery chemistries). The new ones come with 10 year battery warranties, and even now small shops are popping up that can replace cells… in 10 years? Your local garage will be doing it.

Distance isn’t an issue - there have been taxis that have done 100,000 miles with no battery degredation.

This is a problem with all cars and probably the answer is ‘people like buying bricks’.

EV are far better at this - you’d have to run a radio for days for it to have any impact on range… you’re talking a few watts vs. the normal kw range to drive the motors. Of course when stopped the energy used for the motors is 0 (unlike a petrol engine that burns fuel when idling).

What I would say is EVs are still mostly in the early adopter phase. They’re expensive, and (apart from Tesla) of somewhat limited range (~150 miles now). Either one of these things would be fine, but both is a bit of a killer right now… lots of people (heck, probably most) want a car to go to the shops and commute a couple of miles… but those typically aren’t the people looking at paying £20-£25k for a new car…

Give it a couple of years the batteries will be cheaper, there will be shorter range cheap cars and long range expensive cars. That’s when it’s time to start looking, unless you’re like me and just jump into new stuff because it’s a bit cool :stuck_out_tongue:


(Frank) #14

It will be interesting when we can make this comparison. I thought the new Leaf was coming in close to £30k for a similar spec to the model 3 but the 3 I suspect will feel more worth the price tag (subjective I know).

As for PCP this will also be interesting as so far Tesla resale and residuals have been really strong. So you could see a Model 3 ticket price being slightly higher but PCP being the same or possibly lower.

I am keen to try out the new Leaf as the design finally looks like a normal car and the range is more acceptable. But by the time I am ready to switch (1-2 years) I am hoping there is a good range to choose from and the Model 3 is in good supply.


(Allie) #16

Okay. Which is greener, gas (LPG) or electric powered by the UK’s typical electric fuel mix (not an eco tariff obviously)?


(Liam W) #17

There’s nowhere near enough charging points for electric cars at the moment.

Check my home town: https://www.zap-map.com/live/ and search LA14.

Last year, there were none there. Now there are 3, but they’re still a good few miles away from the main town…

And travelling to another city wouldn’t be easy!

Liam


(Frank) #18

This is where I am lucky I guess. I have one almost over the road but also at work which is 12 miles away. And I would plan to add in proper charging at home. So the infrastructure is there for me now. I just need the car.


(Benjamin Doherty) #19

This is the best thread in the foyer for a while. Im watching closek. Can someone hurry up and actually own a model 3. Come and tell the rest of us how quality it is


#20

I would like one. I don’t know much about them.

Hopefully by the time I need to replace my current car there will be a decent range available :+1:

Even a hybrid interests me.


(Frank) #21

I wanted a hybrid but the costs are prohibitive and I don’t see them saving anything (maybe the environment but only slightly).

Only when you can buy a standard car (say a focus) and choose your power supply (petrol/diesel/hybrid/electric) with there only being £1-2k difference between them will EV start becoming mainstream.

Currently focus starting price £20k 300-400 range.
Focus electric £31k (maybe less with gov allowance?) and only 140 mile range!