Brexit Chat


#232

I’m not getting offended to be honest, I just think its unfair to tar a whole group of people with that particular comment especially as its not true for the vast majority of people. As I said before, I don’t normally express my opinion on the EU referendum as leave voters all immediately get classified as racists by certain remain voters.

Being completely honest, my area of the country is pretty highly white British but i’m certainly not ignorant to the challenges certain communities face.

Sure, I knew they supported the extreme hard brexit, total break with the EU, restricted immigration but I was/am confident that the vast majority of the country are decent people and wouldn’t let them go that way. It just irks me that you think that because they were part of leave that it makes 52% of the country members of UKIP and that we all sign up to their version of it? As I said before, I support Tony Benns idea of leaving the european union, not UKIPs.

Im perfectly happy to accept that you have a different view of the debate than I do. As I said before, there are some leave voters like myself who do have genuine reasons to have voted that way and it adds nothing to continually polarise it. We can all have a sensible rational debate :slight_smile:


#233

Forgetting about the leave/remain side of things (although… I get that this is what the entire topic is about).

The referendum, and prior campaigning by both sides, just shows that.

  1. We have some terrible, terrible politicians.
  2. There is zero trust in our politicians, for a very good reason.
  3. Brexit was swayed by an older population who have lived and seen what a mess our country has become at times.

The same applies for the Hillary/Trump argument - I mean… If it was literally anyone other than Clinton, Trump would have lost (I genuinely believe that).

I often hear people say “I could do a better job than them”, and I actually believe them most of the time.

Until politics becomes more accessible, and we take a step into the 21st century, I can’t see much changing!


(Simon B) #234

It’s not what I think. But it’s fairly clear to me that the UKIP supporters don’t care about anything other than the outcome.

The people who attacked and threatened my family and friends chanted things like “F off, we voted you out”

We understood for months that this was what would happen. I live in a nice middle class multicultural bubble where there were Remain posters and flags all over the place. Couple months before the referendum, I had to get on a bus to go to the Apple Store, and it’s a route that takes me through a UKIP stronghold, a majority white nationalist area that I try to avoid at all costs. I saw Leave posters everywhere. Alongside racist graffiti and England flags. That’s when I realised just how much the campaign had been co-opted. It was on the border of that area where my cousin, days after the referendum was racially abused along with her teenage daughter. And she was in her car! Imagine if they’d been walking there for any reason. Would have been much worse.

Anyway…I fully understand that not all Leave voters are racist. And I apologise if you felt attacked, as that wasn’t the intent.

But I think it’s important to understand that the ones that are racist, fully think that they represent the majority of Leave voters, and their hate was massively empowered by the result.


#235

This is awful and I am really sorry that this happened to them both :frowning:

Thank you for clarifying, no need to apologise :slight_smile: . I agree with you that there are certain groups which think the referendum has endorsed their abhorrent and disgusting views and its up to those other leave voters like me, to help stamp out their views and show them it’s not acceptable and wont be tolerated


(Richard) #236

Sounds more like an England Defence League sort of area (who predominately support UKIP as they don’t have their own party since the BNP went south)


(Simon B) #237

Yep, exactly that.

Thankfully we Brummies don’t stand for it!


#238

What about the Democrat supporters who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hillary? Are you saying they should have voted for her anyway, just for the party (or just to stop Trump)? President is a far more personal mandate than Prime Minister, so it’s hard to vote for an individual you don’t like.


(Eve) #239

I think Simon’s saying that some people could afford to not vote for Hillary when they disagreed with her past history, with her policies etc., because they have the privilege of not worrying about what Trump could potentially bring to the table. But some minority voters don’t have the luxury of being able to do so because even if they don’t like what she stands for or support her, the alternative would have been worse.

I know a lot of people don’t like hearing “privilege” because they don’t think of themselves as privileged eg they’re in the working class, in debt, etc and someone is now implying they’re privileged and racist. I was trying to find a blog post written about this but I can’t find the link anymore, but the gist of it was focused on saying if you can afford to disregard Trump’s attitude towards certain groups of people and vote for someone else other than Hillary, then you’re lucky enough to have it not affect you as much.


(Simon B) #240

Yes, they should have, if Hillary was still closer to their belief system than Trump. Particularly seeing as she introduced a great deal of the Bernie Sanders policies into her ticket.

A lot of Republicans who, on many occasions, fought Trump when he wasn’t the frontrunner, including some who he personally insulted, swallowed their pride and begun supporting him once he was the candidate, because a Republican win is a Republic win. They may still dislike him, but Pence is their guy and their way of trying to get more “normal” (well, as normal as Repubs get :wink:) Republican policies pushed through.

Oh well.

I’m rooting for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to be President at this point. Maybe not in 2020, but in 2024 that might well be what we see! Dream scenario - Michelle Obama with Ocasia-Cortez as her VP :wink:


(Jack) #242

The space time continuum just broke? I see the same post twice


(Andy) #243

Glitch in the matrix


#244

Hmmm - I disagree on two points.

  1. Votes are the most powerful thing most of us have. If no-one has convinced you enough to have your vote, I think it’s fine to stay at home, unless like in the UK, the spoiled papers are counted.
  2. Why Michelle? Can’t we have a female candidate who hasn’t been married to a President? Personally I have nothing against Hillary or Michelle, but I am not convinced that either of them would be even on our minds if it weren’t for who they married. I know one person who stayed at home in 2016 because they didnt think Hillary was a strong enough role model, having stayed with Bill after Monica…

I have also heard that Pence is at least as bad as Trump…


#245

I think he just thought my challenge was worthy of two responses :wink:


(Leon) #246

Yep Labour need a centrist candidate like Tony Blair or a David Miliband. The problem is looking at Labour at the moment I don’t think there is a strong centrist MP out there.


(Stephen Ward) #247

I would vote the same. I feel more strongly about it now than before.


#248

The thing that always struck me about the EU referendum was Jeremy Corbyn doing a complete 180 on his views when he became Labour Party leader. He voted down all legislation which gave the EU more control when he was a back bencher and followed the Bennite principles towards the EU (Benn wanted us to leave the EU) and seemed very eurosceptic, yet decided to completely change his views almost overnight when he came leader.

That actually convinced me even more to vote leave, as it felt he was being disingenuous and was telling people to vote a way he didn’t really seem to believe


#249

You might be wrong believing this, I am afraid.

Many voters decided to vote Trump on one, and only one issue, international trade.

Western companies for the past 2 or 3 decades followed the same business model. Offshoring their manufacturing operations to East and South-East Asia while setting up their tax affairs in tax havens. What we got as a result, was shrinking tax receipts to public coffers resulting in tragic state of public services and publicly funded infrastructure across the West. The only beneficiaries of that models in the West, unfortunately, was small group of professionals, 10-15% in a few dozens of cosmopolitan cities in the West, finding employment in multinational corporations. For them to understand the despair of the left behind in their own countries, seems almost like an impossible task. Why would they, they don’t need to use public services to the same extent as low income individuals, their private and efficient healthcare is provided by their employer, at work facilities are included and top-class, their colleagues can understand and address issues such as mental health crisis, etc. All of this, low paid citizens in the left behind part of the Western hemisphere can only dream about.

At the same time, these business practices allowed the most dictatorial leader in the world, Xi Jinping to bully their neighbours by making outrageous territorial claims in the South East China Sea. Chinese critic of his rule are imprisoned, harassed or thrown out of the country if lucky. Freedom of speech and the access to free internet heavily controlled and limited. No western leader even dares to acknowledge the existence of free and democratic state of Taiwan for jeopardising economic relation with People’s Republic of China. The level of hypocrisy is unreal. I don’t remember protests when Saudi king visited to London. Xi Jinping had red carpet rolled out for him and the only person who dared to challenge him, political emigre from China, ended up arrested on that day with his house searched by the police.

What our leaders don’t want to see and beneficiaries of the current economic system will never acknowledge, is that we are strengthening the greatest dictatorship of 21st century which don’t care about respecting intellectual property rights or human rights and will be happy to challenge western values and political order at some point in the future. All for short term economic gains at the expense of the most vulnerable parts of our society. Is anyone surprised that they are becoming radicalised and angry?


#250

It’s possible, and I don’t want to take this any more off topic than it already is.

Hypotheticals and politics don’t mix very well - Appreciate your insight though :slight_smile:


#251

I am going to add my two cents and then run for cover.

I voted leave and I would still vote leave. The reasons I voted leave were nothing to do with immigration or the promises about the NHS etc.

Indeed my decision to vote leave was made before any of the so called lies about leaving were even made (or thought of)

EEC yes… EU no…

There are very important and significant differences between the two

The reason I feel compelled to comment is to correct some of the above assertions.

If you voted leave, it does not automatically mean you are an uneducated racist. By the same token, voting remain doesn’t make you superior to or more intelligent than those that voted leave.

I wonder if those that voted remain, would be calling for a second vote, as hard as they are, if they had won the first vote. Be honest… You know in your heart of hearts you wouldn’t.

Should their be a vote on the final deal ?

In my view the vote, if there really has to be one, should be a vote on to accept the deal or to leave without a deal.

Staying should not be an option to be voted on again, just because the elite and more importantly the elite wannabes are unable to accept the outcome of the original vote.

Now going to hide before I get set upon by those really nice friendly people that voted remain - after all, they are (by their own admission) so clever and understand the arguments that they claim leavers don’t

#notarrogantmuch


(Jorge) #252

No need. I profoundly disagree with you but we’re pretty much adults that can have an adult conversation. All ideas are welcome and to be respected.

At least for as long as entitled to an opinion in this country

I’m afraid you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Also been very curious about the logic of leaving the EU when the UK was already at a vantage point in comparison with other countries like having a permanent opt-out from the single currency and Schengen passport-free area or the £5bn annual rebate. You can’t get more by giving less.

I agree. Not all leavers are racists but all racists are leavers.

This might be true for the big majority of remainers but with such a close result, to be completely honest with you, I wouldn’t have minded a second referendum after another series of public debates (and I know what it really means for me: an EU national). It’s only been after the referendum that most people have realised what it all means. You’d be surprised how many people would change their vote, especially after all the promises that will probably hang in the balance.

Boy, you do look scared of holding another referendum. Perhaps you’re not really sure that the result would be leave again?

Again, no need. It might actually be me who needs to hide because I’ve been here for less than 5 years and I’m in between jobs. Who knows if I’ll get deported because the whole getting back our borders thing.

Also never said I’m clever. Or nice.