This extra choice is not one I find many with iphones want, I know android people who wouldnt go apple without that choice but its not one people are screaming for because it has very very little positives with more negatives and even then multiple app stores is not something that is being heavily used when allowed on android but it is a big vector in scamware and malware instead so its not like anyone can show a huge success when this is even allowed or benefit. Epic would have had a stronger case if they had actually made an app store and legitimately made it a huge success on android but they havent and even use tricks to try and advertise on the play store.
So open it up and very very few use it for its intended purpose but people end up getting issues with scam apps and potential malware all for a negligible gain that the person could have got anyway going to android.
I dont get why people find that they need to save us iphone users from our choice to buy an iphone knowing these limits. I could easily have bought and android and get all this supposed freedom but I actively chose an iphone knowing what I would get.
If I change my mind I will gladly get an android phone but I dont want others deciding that my choice was invalid and weakening iOS as a whole just because they dont understand it.
While I agree with this in principle, it’s very likely that such a choice would be made for me, rather than by me.
If we look at how Epic is treating the Epic Games Store, their primary driver of interest has been buying exclusives for their platform, actually removing choice from users. In some cases, pre-orders from other digital stores have been cancelled because Epic have paid for exclusivity at the last minute.
Want Fortnite? Download the Epic App Store.
Want Instagram or WhatsApp? Download the Facebook App Marketplace.
Want Photoshop for iPad? Download the Adobe Creative Suite Launcher.
Each of which will then have my card details, billing information, run their own update service etc.
It’s very easy to say that Apple users “don’t want to be given a choice.” What we want is to not have a good thing ruined.
None of what I said is about trying to save users of a particular camp, it’s about asking for a higher level of excellence and not from one side in particular. I think both Apple and Android could be much better.
In fact I think Apple’s design and connectivity on Android’s openness and flexibility is what I’d really love to see. I don’t think that’s never going to happen but I still think it’s worth asking for.
I think that’s a dangerous assumption. We’re trusting the developers here to actually offer us, the users, the choice to choose the service that benefits us, rather than limiting our choice to whichever benefits them most.
I’m quite happy with Apple having control here because they’ve historically done right by me, and I know what to expect. If this ever ceases to be the case, then I’ll cease to be in support of the way they do things.
I have a hard time trusting the developers pushing for changes like this to have my best interests at heart. When those changes would subtract from a system that I feel does. I don’t think they want to save me money, or offer me a better experience, or greater choice. I believe they want greater control over my experience and the choices I have available. And I just don’t want that. If I did, I’d be an android user.
This actually sounds like something I hear from android users often, they want apples high performance hardware but running android instead, I do not hear apple users saying “I wish I had 3 app stores and I could install any random app on the internet” but many android users think its something we want because they can do it.
So if there is no use of this on android why do we apple users need it? how will thing improve and not lessen given the risks android users have when they enabled 3rd party apk’s?
I do think apple needs to sort out the spotify issue and app rules but no one I know, besides android users, have a big urge to have more stores or direct install apk’s for legal means. Its simply a solution looking for a problem.
We already have a solution, we can go android if we want, given 20% odd each year more across to android its not a big deal.
This is before we get to those app stores trying to get a foothold in iOS to get around the privacy expectations we have that are on iOS. I suspect facebook would be pretty keen to have their own app store without the 14.5 privacy protections requirement, protection that doesnt exist on the play store.
I’m not trying to say what people need, only suggesting that people should be given a choice to suit their own needs.
Sure you can switch OSes but I also think there’s nothing wrong with asking for change within an OS from a company you think is competent enough to pull it off.
I’m very consciously trying to avoid themuns and ussens arguments (apple users and android users) as both groups are made up of a wide range of people.
Not all android users want or care about having multiple app stores, and even less think that it’s something apple users might want. Equally not all Apple users pick an iphone because of the security it may provide or because they think android is insecure, they have an iphone because it’s what they know and it’s what their social circle uses.
Both OSes are great but I think both could be made better if they took leaf out of eachothers books.
I understand you cant see the harm of this and only the gains but I can only see far greater harm against minor gains. Several parts of the harm has been shown on android where they have had years of development with this model to prevent the harm and still malware causes havoc.
This is before we get to the privacy harms which would be massive, its not like these 3rd party store would be happy to follow apples rules and given the amount that can be done by cydia (for good/bad) apps its something that would be a huge problem.
Facebook would instantly want a separate store without iOS ad rules for tracking etc, thats a big negative, epic would want a store where they would buy exclusives to prevent them being on Apples store while charging the same like is the case on PC, negative for consumers, not cheaper prices just more mess.
Then you get to the whole piracy issue which is a big issue on android for games developers and are a vector of scamware/malware onto the OS so iOS would need some sort of AV but that couldnt be done by apple because monopoly of their definition of malware so thats some other PITA app running in the background all to allow me to have the choice. Now every pirated copy != lost sale but it certainly doesnt help.
The only positive that seems to be above is more profits for 3rd parties through ads and targetting and lower cuts from the stores, consumer gains are marginal.
It will be interesting to see the how the epic store does on android when it comes, they have shown they like dirty tricks to push people to install it with stub apps on the play store as free advertisements mostly. Wait until they buy up exclusive rights to your favourite app and you have to buy it on the epic store for updates.
Just to add google is changing their IAP terms to align with how apples works so its coming to the play store if the change goes live like they announced. They no longer want to miss out on the IAP cut.
I’d rather you didn’t speak for me, I don’t think you understand me, but that’s ok.
I do see the risks, I just don’t think they are as massive or as apocalyptic as you seem to think they are, I’m quite happy for us to think differently though.
I very much believe that people should have the right to choose what is right for their individual needs and wants. And I believe people have the right to choose the wrong* option.
Not that I think it would happen but if it ever got to the point where the facebook app was exclusively available on their own app store and that came with its own rules for tracking, then the market should judge how successful that approach is, not some other massive company with their own agendas.
Also just because you give people the option to chose it doesn’t automatically mean that everyone will stop using the apple services they already know and love, especially if they are good enough to compete.
*Right and wrong being very subjective and will be different depending on the individual.
I do find your arguments a bit counter intuitive, you say markets will decide if facebook launches their own app store with privacy issues but apple should not be able to do something different by having a closed private system while allowing the markets to decide which they prefer as is currently happening.
If you believe in free markets then its playing out right now, people have a choice of which phone they want and the restrictions each has and people choose, your just not happy that’s the way it splits and want to force apple to allow more just because you want an iphone with an open system, something they have no interest in doing.
Apple is not the whole market, they make profit the way they want to and people buy their products knowing they make their profits less from users data and ads and more from direct sales unlike googles approach where most of their play store feeds into the ad marketing system.
We as consumers have the choice of device we want, I cant force google to reduce the ad feed for my data but you want it to work the other way?
I can choose not to use google services but by doing what you claim and allowing choice you damage the value of my choice when I buy apple. I wont have another option when apps are exclusively on 3rd party stores where as you wont be affected at all on android as you made that choice for that type of product.
Its clear epic is planning an app store on both android and iOS and they will employ the same tricks they are on the pc to get installs. They are actively buying apps right now for their app store on pc removing choice for the end user and that will happen on mobiles as well, they just cant do that because its not an option currently on iOS, it has to go in the app store right now as people who buy iphones expect.
Why are you not happy with apple users choice to use an open system or use a closed system? why do you want to force an open system on me when I knowingly chose a closed system. The argument “well you dont have to open it” is moot imo with the plans epic has and thats before we see what others do and I can simply retort “why did you buy an iphone if you wanted an open system”
I dont think we will ever agree though although I do hope you can list off why this is needed with a bit more detail. You say you dont want me to speak for you but you seem to think you speak for iphone users who chose these limits with their purchase, they could have simply bought android and had an open system.
Like I have said multiple times, the app store needs better rules and practices for appealing decisions, maybe even a bit less commission on each sale given the scope of it now but I do NOT think iOS should be an open system just because of hypothetical benefits especially when there is no evidence of these benefits helping consumers and plenty of potential harm.
Spotify has more of a case than epic with the commission and that needs figuring out as it has merits that the initial 30% is prohibitive for them to use IAP but likewise it has not stopped spotify being huge on iOS even though you cant sign up in app.
As an aside, as someone who has had to fix a large amount of android devices that have been infected with adware and crap thanks to the open system and struggles people have understanding the risk I can say that I 100% do not want the mess to hit iPhones just so someone can test out and idea of free markets and an open system for all regardless. I do have plenty of folk who run android without issue but I have as many who dont and have nothing but issues because of choice
Completely agree. Yes there are risks to opening up iOS a little but I think Apple are extremely keen to overplay the risks in the interests of keeping their App Store control.
iOS is secure by design. The sandbox puts a limit on what apps can do. Everyone seems to forget that the Mac is not some security nightmare even though it lets you install third party software.
Why not allow side loading? Make it hard to do. Add loads of scary warnings before you can enable it.
Most people won’t even know you can do it. And those that do could still choose to completely ignore it and still have their walled garden experience.
The App Store is still going to be the best option for the vast majority of apps and users. That isn’t going to change.
Mac OS has had huge security holes as recently as this year: Shlayer malware abusing Gatekeeper bypass on macOS and remember OSX has been at least hardened to deal better with 3rd party programs not like iOS and you still should run AV on OSX because of this.
Also one is a PC the other is a mobile and a huge swath of people think phones cant get viruses and have no risk but when using a PC they know the risks, case and point the mess of android which WAS designed for 3rd party apk’s.
Maybe just charge people 30% premium on the hardware price to offset then, to get it you have to buy it when you buy your iphone and thats the sole chance to purchase the feature
I am joking but it would solve the revenue problem for lost app store sales but it would let you do what you want.
I am not spouting based on what apple have said, I have literally seen the mess with 3rd party sideloading on android and had to fix a LOT of devices that are unusable because of it, its not made up, it happens too often! The users search for something and find a video which leads them to install an apk and ignore all the warnings then they start having huge issues with their phone.
This is before you try to re-train existing users of iOS to NEVER turn on that feature a minority want because they cant handle the fact they bought a closed system when they should have simply bought android.
Short of fortnite (by choice) no one has really laid out what will be the gains and the negatives are much clearer. If these gains are so huge its worth the risks why does anyone buy iOS?
Apple literally market the fact that “apps from both the App Store and the internet can be installed worry-free” on the Mac. And Mac apps don’t have the sandbox limitations that iOS ones do so they’re inhently more “dangerous”.
I’m not so sure it’s that safe, but Apple already has measures in place like notarisation to reduce the risks.
My own experience with most of my family who all use Android is that they’ve never managed to mess up their phones with malware. None of them would have a clue what an APK is let alone how to download one and then install it.
But let’s look at real figs rather than anecdata. Google’s own data (from 2018) is really interesting and claims that 0.68% of devices that installed apps from outside of Google Play were affected by one or more PHAs (potentially harmful apps) in 2018. It also shows the % of devices with PHAs installed reducing with each new Android version as they continue to make security approvements.
The report is genuinely worth at least a quick browse.
Of course there is a risk, but all security is a balance of risk vs convenience. Should Apple start blocking websites in safari to protect people from themselves too?
Feels slightly hyperbolic to me. Unfortnuately I couldn’t find stats on the % of Android phones that have sideloaded apps.
Sure and as much as they want it I very much doubt that it would be enough of a success for them to have it available on their own app store exclusively.
I still think they and others should be allowed that ability, that choice, but just because companies have their own stores it doesn’t mean that they will stop offering apps on the Apple app store too. If they do and still manage to survive and be successful then I say congratulations on competing on a level playing field.
