Yes, of course. If employer and employee both agree that it’s mutually beneficial to sign the contract, and a job role is filled, that’s great.
I feel that perhaps I’m on a different wavelength to a lot of commenters here, but in my worldview, employees are independent, adult, rational individuals who accept a job offer because the alternative is worse. They are not “victims” of the employer.
I don’t understand how you can base all your arguments on the benefits of a free market, when it’s widely accepted and acknowledged that a free market (as defined by economic theory, perfect information, workforce mobility, etc.) does not and cannot ever exist. There’s been a prevailing ideology that it’s possible to tinker with regulations to simulate something close enough to a free market, but history has not been kind to this view. However, to not even acknowledge this, and argue about minimum wage as if such a thing as a free market actually exists is either unbelievably naive or dishonest.
I don’t understand what you’re proposing as an alternative?
I’m just saying that I wouldn’t argue against something on the basis that it distorts/ruins something that doesn’t exist.
Supply and demand do exist, and preserving (as far as possible) free, fair and open markets carries benefit for society which is hard to deny.
It’s fair to say, we don’t have perfectly free markets. There is occasional monopolistic behaviour. Some cartels etc. These reduce the freedom of the market and government needs to occasionally step in to keep the markets free. But the benefits of free markets are obvious and are worth defending both practically and intellectually.
Only the first example I found, but it is illustrative of the gap.
Unequal wage growth is a massive problem. If pay for the CEOs had grown at the same rate as the average worker, things would be much fairer. Yet the rich grow disproportionally richer every year.
It’s all very well saying they earn a ‘fair market wage’ but the market is clearly effed.
There’s no reason they should be paid so much more proportionally. If anything it’s almost a form of asset-stripping. The money would be much better used reinvesting in the business (including in the form of better wages for staff) but instead it goes into the pockets of a small handful of people.
Income inequality is a natural outcome of a fair society where talent and effort are unequally distributed.
Two observations:
The fall happened in 2008. I wonder if there was some kind of major, unique even that could have triggered something unusual to happen?
Similarly for the most recent (slight) fall.
Three datapoints aren’t enoigh to establish a trend. If it carries on falling back down to a gap of early '90s levels I’ll eat my hat.
As for wealth not being a zero sum game, that’s an opinion not a fact. The poor can and do get ‘richer’ but remain poor due to their getting ‘richer’ not keeping up with the cost of living. Which is to say, my opinion is that wealth is a zero sum game.
I create a company. My shares are worth £100. Company does well. The shares are now worth £200.
Who got poorer for me to get richer?
[we’re massively off topic now so I will step out of the discussion]
Shareholders in other companies
Just to say you don’t need to go to university for a higher paying job. Im 21, don’t have a degree and I earn more than the average UK salary (25/26k I think is the average UK salary) as a web developer. So just want to caveat this that you dont NEED to have a degree to get a high paying job, sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn’t.
Oh, here we go.
So you’ve ignored the whole “no jobs available” thing? Also, what point is looking for another job when the other jobs are all minimum wage too? Or perhaps you think they should be grateful a job exists in the first place?
So businesses that are only successful because they pay their staff low wages shouldn’t raise the wages because the business will no longer be [as] successful (unless they then raise their own prices)? If a business can’t succeed without paying employees poorly, you should really wonder what is wrong with the business model.
Bit of a sweeping statement.
STEAL! Those poor hard-working CEOs just don’t get the recognition for their hard work and dedication. Oh I do feel for them! I’m sure their millions don’t keep them warm at night, they probably sob into a wad of fresh fifties every night.
Possibly the most patronising reply I’ve ever had.
So you are trying to claim the moral high ground but what’s this…
So it’s ok for you to do it to everybody on this forum via your above comment, but when you think somebody has done it to you you seem extremely quick to cry foul. How interesting…
Shakes head Never mind, if you don’t see it then don’t worry about it I guess.
I have a number of friends who are on minimum wage crappy jobs (sometimes on more than one to supplement their meagre earnings), and if they could find a well paid 9-5 job they certainly would.
Counterpoint: I have friends in the same situation, but looking at it more closely revealed they just don’t want to make the compromises necessary for getting those jobs (and those that made the compromises eventually got out of this situation - including me - I worked a low-wage job too for a few months when there was nothing else available because it was a small town with no industry).
One of them for example is struggling on insufficient wage compared to her outgoings (lots of debt & expenses to pay - did she really need that brand new car?) in an awful village in the middle of nowhere, but when offered opportunities in London (she could easily make around 40k here) turns out she doesn’t want to move here.
Another one is in London and has all the job market at her fingertips should she use the free resources at her disposition to learn how to write at least half-decent code… but turns out apparently investing time into her career is too much to ask for and she’d rather waste her time on non-lucrative opportunities and then complain about her situation and the fact it’s the beginning of the month and she spent all her pay check on going out & shopping. 
if they could find a well paid 9-5 job they certainly would.
Nobody is entitled to a well-paid job right at the start, you have to prove yourself and earn that pay. But junior-level jobs are a thing and in this day and age all the resources to learn the skills required are available for free for most industries. You can work low-wage and invest your free time to learn/improve the skills you need to get the job you desire and a few months down the line you should be able to get a junior position.
Unless you want to go to University, which is generally essential if you want to get anywhere in the job market
[citation needed]
There are certain industries where university is a must, there are also a lot of industries where it isn’t anymore. All you need to get an on-site interview for a junior developer position is a decent resume with at least one “experience” item on it. Doesn’t have to be paid either - you can get started by volunteering for charities or publishing open-source software. If you have an eye for design you don’t even need any experience as long as you can create a decent-looking portfolio website. I worked with a designer on an earlier project and turns out they got the contract through the founder finding their portfolio. They had no previous experience what-so-ever and yet got a contract that paid way more than any low-wage job could ever pay (and now got experience which will help them find future jobs/contracts).
Don’t like software/design/etc? No worries, I don’t either. Work a software job until you save enough money to pay for the education necessary to get the job you actually like, or maybe just suck it up and be grateful for the money - after all you are still making about double the average UK salary with jobs like these.
I’m against working for free, as a principle, as this disadvantages those who just can’t afford that.
Also why would you require citations from someone saying a degree is required for a lot of jobs (certainly been the case in my experience) but then happily use personal experiences to counter an argument earlier? Be consistent.
Honestly I’m rather surprised that people think moving from one job to another is quite so easy and matter of fact. I remember being rejected from McDonald’s (!!) as a student for part time work. Found some eventually but the manager even said he hired me just because “we’re both northerners in London”.
I’m sure there are just some lazy folk out there who have no motivation to find a better job, but I’d like to think that this isn’t the case generally. I see a lot of theoretical debate here, but it’s not reflecting in reality for a good chunk of the country.
That being said, I do see the argument on both sides. I just don’t often (note: not often, I’m not saying this is outright the case) see people on a low income advocating for the side letting the free market just “work”. It’s unsurprisingly often those who can afford to have such statements.
I am not on minimum wage and I don’t pretend to know the difficulties faced in some situations
I agree that it’s human nature in many respects so I don’t think it’s surprising.
I have to take issue that amount earned is linked to amount or effort worked. Many of our public servants work extremely hard in life threatening situations for below or just on average wages.
Also why would you require citations from someone saying a degree is required for a lot of jobs (certainly been the case in my experience) but then happily use personal experiences to counter an argument earlier? Be consistent.
We can do a quick search on Indeed and find opportunities like this:
The person
This is an ideal opportunity for a junior developer looking to expand their commercial experience using Python. You will be enthusiastic, self-motivated, open-minded and have:
Experience of developing web applications using Python or PHP
An understanding of PostgreSQL or MySQL
A good understanding of HTML/CSS/Javascript
A good understanding of version control, preferably Git and GitHub
This is clearly a junior job and the salary (“20-32k, and up to 40k for London”) isn’t that great from a software engineer’s perspective, but it’s definitely an upgrade for someone stuck on minimum wage, and most importantly will give them hands-on experience they can take to their next job and negotiate a better pay check.
Honestly I’m rather surprised that people think moving from one job to another is quite so easy and matter of fact.
it definitely depends on the location, in some horrible places where there is no industry and everyone is desperate it’s definitely hard (also because employers know they can be picky and have crazy requirements and/or low salaries, something they can’t get away with if the job market is healthy) but moving is an option which I always recommend.
I remember being rejected from McDonald’s (!!) as a student for part time work.
Shit happens. We don’t talk about it but rejections are a normal part of job searching (and frankly a normal part of life - this also applies to love, friendships, etc). I remember being rejected despite nailing the tech interview - turns out the CEO (meeting with him is the last part of the interview process) seemed to have had a bad day and we just didn’t get along that time. But in a healthy job market there should be plenty of other opportunities for you and in fact you should always have a few going at the same time so you have backup plans if one doesn’t work out.
I see a lot of theoretical debate here, but it’s not reflecting in reality for a good chunk of the country.
I know a lot of places where there just isn’t any industry to work for. I mean, do you really want to have a law forcing companies to open premises in awful boring towns just to give people jobs? But moving is an option. If you’re broke you can still borrow from friends/family/credit card/etc. I’d like to see this “reality”; so far my personal experiences have always been with people who don’t want to make the necessary compromises and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate for free. Sorry, life isn’t fair. Deal with it.
It’s unsurprisingly often those who can afford to have such statements.
I guess because these people have more experience how businesses work behind the scenes, and know that it’s a false “solution” that will just end up making things worse, either by raising prices (everyone is worse off as a result) or eliminating jobs completely (not that I’m against that - mind-numbing manual work is akin to slavery IMO and should be automated away).
It’s all subjective, but I think if you want good money you should do a good job, if you don’t do a good job you don’t earn good money.
Totally agreed. If you deliver value people will pay you for it. If you don’t… then what did you expect? It’s your responsibility to take the steps necessary (learning, moving, buying the tools needed for the job, etc) to make sure you can deliver value and get closer to your potential customers (employers in this case).
I have to take issue that amount earned is linked to amount or effort worked. Many of our public servants work extremely hard in life threatening situations for below or just on average wages.
Agreed but I see this as a failure of these people who accept such conditions. Employers can afford to pay that low for such work because the market will take it. If these people do the necessary steps and move away from such careers, the pool of candidates will dry up and employers will have to pay more if they want to hire anyone for these positions.