Can you “Predict” Continuous Payment Authority

Hi,

Is there any way to “Predict” CPA Payment’s Within The Scheduled Payment’s Tab?

No.

Certainly not as far as a Bills pot ‘pre-payment’ is concerned (time based)

But the date of the CPA being taken is probably a safe bet.

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Sorry, I didn’t mean Predict. I meant Pay From Pot.

I know normal card payments from pots aren’t possible (Yet…) but I thought maybe a CPA would be different as the date and amount and fixed usually

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They usually are, but because a CPA is you basically saying to the merchant ‘here are my card details, charge me what we agreed’, Monzo has no idea what that agreement is.

OTOH, D/D’s & Standing Orders give control to the bank to process.

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CPA and DD have that in common actually.

The difference is that with a DD the company tells the bank “dwarf has given me permission to collect money whenever I want. Please remember that for the next 13 months.” A cpa has no such setup. But the bank doesn’t know the schedule anymore with a DD than it does with a cpa.

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To sort of answer the question though: afaik a CPA is indistinguishable from a series of individual card payments to the bank, so I doubt what you want to do is possible.

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iDW_think

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Yep. As mentioned above: the company is in control of the DD, not the bank. (Although the bank can of course decline payments under both DD and CPA.)

It’s the initial setup that’s slightly different, but neither setup tells the bank anything about any proposed schedule.

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Setting up a D/D informs the bank about everything to do with the regular payment.

Engaging in a CPA tells the bank nothing.

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It doesn’t tell the bank the schedule. Indeed you can take arbitrary payments with a DD and the company I work for does so regularly…

Setting up a DD does not inform the bank of any schedule.

DDs we set up have no schedule at all: they are all processed at arbitrary dates for arbitrary amounts.

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Oh, it does. Hence why D/D’s end when they are supposed to.

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Well, I work with DDs for a living, and I assure you it does not.

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They always have in my experience. Council Tax, Car Insurance, Mortgage payments, TV License, etc., etc. - always finish being taken once the scheduled period I have agreed to has ended - the very definition of a D/D agreement.

CPA’s arrive when they are charged - without any scheduled ‘plan’ and any ‘ending’, coz the bank has no idea. Like when I buy a McD’s on a card payment.

Good to know where this falls down though, from the insider knowledge?

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I thought DDs ended only because the merchant stops taking funds. I’ve never seen anything to suggest that the bank has any more information about a DD than the fact that you’ve authorised the company to take money - the old DD paper forms that went to the bank never had schedule details attached.

Thus the only reason the bank has any sort of advance warning as to what’s happening, and why feeding money from pots can happen, is the 3 day warning they get that “money will be taken soon”.

I still believe that CPAs ought to be notified to banks in the same way with something like the direct debit guarantee. I wonder if the increased used of 3DS etc. for every payment can nobble these somehow.

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A D/D agreement is an agreed payment amount for an agreed payment frequency between you and the merchant/vendor, with details sent to the bank so the bank knows the details.

CPA’s don’t have the last link (details sent to the bank)

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From What is Direct Debit the details are notified to (and agreed by) the customer in advance. The bank isn’t even mentioned.

It’s noticeable with RBS, for example, than when a first payment is taken they have no idea what the schedule is and so display “Irregular” or something until the second payment happens and they can work out the frequency from there.

Edit: Whoops, it’s “Infrequent” that’s displayed. Except for ID Mobile. Those just aren’t paid in my experience. Grrrrr.

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Irregular would be a more fitting descriptor anyway.

I’m always being billed by direct debit for ad-hoc things, as it’s just simpler. The bank is oblivious until they put in the request for the amount.

It was always messing up my summary prior to using bill pots.

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From memory…

Direct debits are set up by the merchant sending an instruction to the bank electronically (with a 0N code to denote a new instruction). No information is provided about amount or frequency. A Direct Debit instruction expires after 13 months if no DD payments are taken.

First Direct Debit taken by the merchant must have a 01 transaction code. Subsequent transactions (variable dates and amounts allowed, but the customer - not the bank - must be notified in advance of the date and amount) have a 17 transaction code. If it’s a fixed term (such as a loan) then the final direct debit has a transaction code of 18. A merchant can cancel a direct debit with a 0C transaction code (and of course the customer can cancel a DD themselves at any time). A 0C/0N pair sent to the bank by the merchant changes the bank details for a direct debit.

Merchants taking direct debits are registered with BACS and identified by a 6 digit SUN (Service User Number, formerly OIN or Originator Identification Number) which is shown on the Direct Debit agreement signed by the customer.

No such setup/cancel information is received by the customer’s bank for a CPA. The customer gives card details to the merchant who can then take payments until the expiry date of the card.

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Respect for the memory there - very, very impressive :love_you_gesture:

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For my sins, I could knock up a valid BACS Standard 18 file using Notepad :wink:

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